all amps sound the same?

[wesl56 10+ year member]

teh square waves make my head hurt... i dunno if it just my shitty deck or not, but i cant play bassy songs loud cause the cd starts skipping //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/frown.gif.a3531fa0534503350665a1e957861287.gif

 

[FoxPro5 5,000+ posts]

teh square waves make my head hurt... i dunno if it just my shitty deck or not, but i cant play bassy songs loud cause the cd starts skipping //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/frown.gif.a3531fa0534503350665a1e957861287.gif

Silly guy...that cuz you have a square deck and a round sub!!! If you have square waves and you head hurt, get them Kickerz. I have round ones and square ones depending on the shape of my amp //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/fyi.gif.9f1f679348da7204ce960cfc74bca8e0.gif Also look into MB Quartz speakers...

 

[JimJ 5,000+ posts]

In reply to Squeak,

Doesn't the addition of external processing defeat the entire purpose of testing amplifiers? There's no question that processing can do all sorts of negative or positive things to the signal, but then you're not testing the amp, you're testing more of the signal chain...

I have no doubt you can make a solid state amp sound indistinguishable from a tube one - the question is, how much extra "stuff" does it take //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[GrnEydDvl 10+ year member]

In reply to Squeak,
Doesn't the addition of external processing defeat the entire purpose of testing amplifiers? There's no question that processing can do all sorts of negative or positive things to the signal, but then you're not testing the amp, you're testing more of the signal chain...

I have no doubt you can make a solid state amp sound indistinguishable from a tube one - the question is, how much extra "stuff" does it take //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

RC's contest allows different types of amplifiers. Tubes vs SS for example, as long as the other requirements are met.

So according to him, and the contest since no one has proven him wrong, it takes no extra "stuff".

 

[JimJ 5,000+ posts]

Doesn't RC's contest allow different types of amplifiers? Tubes vs SS for example, as long as the other requirements are met.

I thought so.

My post was more along the lines of where-does-the-amplifier-stop kind of thing //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[o2milleniaSs 10+ year member]

"Isn't it nice to know that, at worst, a simple equalizer could make your $300 amplifier "sound" like a $2,500 Brax?"

very interested in this statement..can you please explain more //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[T3mpest 10+ year member]

In reply to Squeak,
Doesn't the addition of external processing defeat the entire purpose of testing amplifiers? There's no question that processing can do all sorts of negative or positive things to the signal, but then you're not testing the amp, you're testing more of the signal chain...

I have no doubt you can make a solid state amp sound indistinguishable from a tube one - the question is, how much extra "stuff" does it take //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

sure, but again, why bother spending 4000 dollars on a high end "SQ" amp when a cheaper, but still reliable amp can be just the same with a 200 dollar eq added in?

 

[Shugarra 10+ year member]

Sort of unrelated, but a thing I think a lot of people miss is that RC doesn't say you shouldn't buy expensive amplifiers, just that in the conditions of his test the expensive will sound the same as the less expensive. Not always of course, but much of the time, the expensive amplifiers will be of a higher build quality and more reliable. They could also put out more power than they advertise or have a lot of built in functionality that less expensive amplifiers do not. Purchasing an amplifier for its' sound quality is probably a bad idea but that shouldn't preclude you from buying an expensive amplifier, just be sure you know why you're buying it.

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

In reply to Squeak,
Doesn't the addition of external processing defeat the entire purpose of testing amplifiers?

Again, remember that he's not testing amplifiers, he's testing what measurements and what tolerances affect the sonic characteristics of an amplifier //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif It just so happens that typically almost all, if not all, of these measurements on any even decent quality amplifier are already below the audible threshold.

And the only thing the "processing" is used for is to match frequency response to within certain tolerances. And in most circumstances, even this is not needed.

He only adds equalization where necessary, such as amplifier that have nondefeatable bass boost built in or high deviations in the frequency reponse. And, considering just about every stereo system nowadays includes some form of equalization, I really don't think I would consider the addition of an equalizer extensive sound processing.

And, as I and Tempest have mentioned...isn't is nice to know that a simple equalizer, which most any stereo system has already, can give you the "high end" sound of the most expensive amps on the market? Considering that the distortion and noise characteritics of any amplifier worth owning will be inaudible, and matching power output is pretty easy to do, that only leaves some minor frequency response deviations as the possible source of differences in all but the most extreme cases. And considering FR differences are not present in every situation.........

There's no question that processing can do all sorts of negative or positive things to the signal, but then you're not testing the amp, you're testing more of the signal chain...

For some reason, people seem to think that he does all of these magical things to the amplifier to make them "identical". He doesn't. All he does is make sure neither amplifier operates above 2% THD, matches the power output of both amplifiers, makes sure that all channels are properly wired in phase, and then measures the frequency response and equalizes the frequency response if necessary (which it is not always).

Also, you can place the equalizer, if one is used, in the signal path of either amplifier. I mention this to combat the commonly spewed misconception that he is "making the good amp sound bad". It is your choice which amplifier has the equalization placed in it's path (again, only if an EQ is needed), the cheap amp or the high end amp. Completely in your control.

Would you consider an equalizer an unreasonable addition to a stereo system, considering most already use one since they are built into most headunits and more advanced users almost always add an external EQ?

Is it not nice to know that you can make just about any amplifier "sound" like any other amplifier with this simple addition of an equalizer? Wouldn't you rather spend $400 on an EQ and amp combination and acheive "Brax-like" sound (an EQ might not even be necessary, but I mention it just for a "worst case" scenario)?

Seriously, what are the issues with this? Who does not find this beneficial to know? How is it not beneficial to know what measurements and tolerances cause audible changes in amplifiers?

I have no doubt you can make a solid state amp sound indistinguishable from a tube one - the question is, how much extra "stuff" does it take //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

Typically a $.50 resistor, at most //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

Per RC:

of course my challenge includes tube amps---thats what got it started to begin with----while most tube amps have more distortion than transistor amps it is still usually below the audible level of a couple percent---the biggest audible difference is like Big T said---the higher output impedance created by the transformer windings causes a slight frequency dependant amplitude difference---while this is usually less than a db or so except in the worst designs (the "super" amps without negative feedback really have this problem big time)the effect is subtle but audible-----and since it naturally happens at the resonant places of the speaker it is sometimes very pronounced----it is easily duplicated with a small value resistor in series with the speaker-----RC-

 

[helotaxi 5,000+ posts]

Grossly simplified, what squeak is getting at is that if the measured differences betwen two amps fall within a certain range, the sound coming from them will be audibly indistiguishable. Basically, there is no magic, mythical property inherent in a highly expensive amp that makes it sound good. As long as these specs fall within tolerances at the power level required to produce the desired output, you're good to go.

The problem with the really cheap amps is that they don't fall within tolerances at moderate volume levels much less at high volume. The distortion, typically, will be excessively high with the amp running well shy of clipping. The quality of the components and the lack of quality control is usually to blame. They may be acceptable at really low power levels but quickly fall short of acceptability as the volume is increased.

Quality amps will keep distortion well within acceptble limits, usually less than 1%, right up to clipping. I'm not talking about the super high end amps, but rather basic reliable amps such as the vast majority of mainstream amps. IMO the only thing you really gain by going with a really high end amp is a certain margin of overbuild. It might run a bit cooler because of a larger heatsink or is less likely to blow because of an overspeced power supply or output devices capable of flowing way more current than they need to. The tolerance of the components used to build the amp are usually tighter and the amp is more of a known quantity vice a midlevel amp that will usually produce something more than rated power ut how much is unknown and varies from sample to sample.

Your decision if that is worth the order of magnitude increase in price. It isn't to me.

 

[beckSHO 10+ year member]

let me put it to you in pictures...
here is a pyramid/lanzar/boss (all same board) that claims 2400 watts

and here is an Orion hcca 5000 that claims 2500 watts

not saying that makes them sound any different, but ya get the idea? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

Ooooooo, pictures. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/thumbsup.gif.3287b36ca96645a13a43aff531f37f02.gif