Addition to speaker system help

[spkerfreak]

Hi everyone, this installation is actually on a boat, but the concept is the same with some small differences. I just got a 2011 Centurion Avalanche. I’m looking to upgrade the speaker system a bit. Looking to add 4 Wetsounds Rev 10’s (300 wats RMS at 4 ohms) with 2 Wetsounds HTX-6 amps.


The boat currently has 4 Kicker BKM60 speaker (50 RMS at 4 ohms) and, a 12” kicker sub (not sure of the parameters) and a Wetsounds HTX-6 amp. This is all powered by 2 marine interstate batteries (model 24M-XHD, 1000 cranking amps, reserve capacity 135).

1. My question is if there’s enough juice in those two batteries, or will I need to add more batteries?

2. If more batteries are needed any idea on how to link them? All tied together in a string, or have a common connection point?

3. Is there any pug-in charging system that someone could recommend for charging all these batteries at the same time. Something that I could build into the boat with a plug on the outside that I could just plug a cable into.


4. Is there a need to upgrade the alternator or is the stock one good enough? I believe the stock alternator puts out something like 65-90amps.

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[HardofWhoring]

That amp is going to do 300w x 3 @ 4ohm. So you're either going to want to do 1 amp with 3 of em, or 2 amps, and do 6 speakers.

Even if you do two of those 900w amps, + 200, 2100w is fine on one battery. More batteries will give you more of a storage bank, which you might need depending on the motor, and possibly alternator.

So if you keep the engine running and the alternator's charging:
roughly it's 2100w / amp efficiency, lets say 80%. 2100/.8 = 2625w
2625w / (are you at?) 14.4v = 182 amps draw.
So when your speakers are playing at max volume, as loud as you can, (and you set it to RMS), you are drawing 182 amps, (+ whatever is on, on the boat).

I don't know your boat, and not looking it up, but do you normally keep it running while you are boating?
Now you could get your alternator rebuilt for a larger charge rate, if you can't find an off the shelf upgrade, but you also need to know what the alt's amp output rate is at/near idle, and what RPM is needed for max output. A great alt will do most at idle. A crappy one can do 3 times as much on the top, and do less at idle than what you have. Are you usually cruising, or sitting there at idle?

You've got a lot of speakers here, and not sure on your amp setup. You have (4) 50w speakers and a sub being powered by a 100w x 6 amp?

I think what I would do is, stop buying HTX-6 amps. You have one that's all you need. Instead of 4 of those rev 10s, go with 3 of em. With 300w on that amp, you're playing em at mono, so they are just to be loud. Four doesn't make sense. If the placement on the boat needs 4 then get six with two amps. I think that's overkill, and for the extra 80 amp draw, I think it's a slight compromise to ease up on the electrical draw.

Get a 4ch amp that's about 50w - 80w x 4. Some head units can do 50w, and not sure what yours is, but maybe that was already a plan.

Then get a 3rd amp for your sub. Not sure on the wattage, at or a little over what your sub is.

If space and money aren't a thing, I definitely would a 2nd battery though just for the extra storage. That extra 80 amp draw for those 4-6 speakers, with two of those batteries, and no alt recharge is the difference between, 1 1/2 hours of full music battery storage time, vs 2 3/4 hours.

 

[spkerfreak]

That amp is going to do 300w x 3 @ 4ohm. So you're either going to want to do 1 amp with 3 of em, or 2 amps, and do 6 speakers.

Even if you do two of those 900w amps, + 200, 2100w is fine on one battery. More batteries will give you more of a storage bank, which you might need depending on the motor, and possibly alternator.

So if you keep the engine running and the alternator's charging:
roughly it's 2100w / amp efficiency, lets say 80%. 2100/.8 = 2625w
2625w / (are you at?) 14.4v = 182 amps draw.
So when your speakers are playing at max volume, as loud as you can, (and you set it to RMS), you are drawing 182 amps, (+ whatever is on, on the boat).

I don't know your boat, and not looking it up, but do you normally keep it running while you are boating?
Now you could get your alternator rebuilt for a larger charge rate, if you can't find an off the shelf upgrade, but you also need to know what the alt's amp output rate is at/near idle, and what RPM is needed for max output. A great alt will do most at idle. A crappy one can do 3 times as much on the top, and do less at idle than what you have. Are you usually cruising, or sitting there at idle?

You've got a lot of speakers here, and not sure on your amp setup. You have (4) 50w speakers and a sub being powered by a 100w x 6 amp?

I think what I would do is, stop buying HTX-6 amps. You have one that's all you need. Instead of 4 of those rev 10s, go with 3 of em. With 300w on that amp, you're playing em at mono, so they are just to be loud. Four doesn't make sense. If the placement on the boat needs 4 then get six with two amps. I think that's overkill, and for the extra 80 amp draw, I think it's a slight compromise to ease up on the electrical draw.

Get a 4ch amp that's about 50w - 80w x 4. Some head units can do 50w, and not sure what yours is, but maybe that was already a plan.

Then get a 3rd amp for your sub. Not sure on the wattage, at or a little over what your sub is.

If space and money aren't a thing, I definitely would a 2nd battery though just for the extra storage. That extra 80 amp draw for those 4-6 speakers, with two of those batteries, and no alt recharge is the difference between, 1 1/2 hours of full music battery storage time, vs 2 3/4 hours.

The alternator in the boat is 100 amps. From what I’ve heard these standard alternators produce around 25amps at idle. We don’t usually blast music at idle. When we are driving we do turn it up pretty much to the top.

I will check the sub parameters. You have a good point, it’s something I should find out. I believe that currently it’s powered as a bridge off the HTX-6 which provides 300 watts RMS at 4ohms. Sub might need more than that.

The small speakers i think are mismatched with the amp.. they are 50 amps RMS at 4ohms, and the amp produces 100amps RMS at 4 ohms and 150 amps RMS at 2 ohms. Does that pose a risk of blowing those speakers? Or is this not a problem? I’m wondering if there’s a way to re-wire them to two channels in parallel or series to lower this chance?

The Rev 10 speakers are tower speakers. My tower has 4 attachment places for brackets. I already have the speakers and I already have the amps. Got a really good deal on the amps. Why would it be a bad idea to run 2 speakers off each amp and leave a channel empty on each one in case I want to add anything later on?

 

[audiobaun 5,000+ posts]

I like to carry my portable Sony Boom Box

 

[HardofWhoring]

You can do this to set your gains on your amp, and dial it in to what you want the power to be to them.


Generally there is some room to go over RMS, it's just RMS is the "optimum output per power consumption". You can get more out of em with more power, but it's diminishing return. You put more and more power after RMS, and you get less and less more out of em. The downfalls are you might put too much in and damage em, but you are also using more power, and putting more of a strain on your electrical system. 50w isn't much of a draw, but it is something, and when you have larger wattage subs it can make a big difference. Sometimes those amps matter, and sometimes you've gone bigger and are ready for it.


You can turn any amp down to make it work. You put less stress on the amp this way. If you already have the amp, then go for it. It's not bad, it's better. It's just a waste of money if you are buying new, and won't ever need the extra headroom, and generally takes up more space. If you got a smoking deal on those amps. No reason not to get em, dial em down now, and you have room so maybe down the road you can use the amp for something more.

You can leave the channels open, but it's still going to draw power for em.

 

[spkerfreak]

You can do this to set your gains on your amp, and dial it in to what you want the power to be to them.


Generally there is some room to go over RMS, it's just RMS is the "optimum output per power consumption". You can get more out of em with more power, but it's diminishing return. You put more and more power after RMS, and you get less and less more out of em. The downfalls are you might put too much in and damage em, but you are also using more power, and putting more of a strain on your electrical system. 50w isn't much of a draw, but it is something, and when you have larger wattage subs it can make a big difference. Sometimes those amps matter, and sometimes you've gone bigger and are ready for it.


You can turn any amp down to make it work. You put less stress on the amp this way. If you already have the amp, then go for it. It's not bad, it's better. It's just a waste of money if you are buying new, and won't ever need the extra headroom, and generally takes up more space. If you got a smoking deal on those amps. No reason not to get em, dial em down now, and you have room so maybe down the road you can use the amp for something more.

You can leave the channels open, but it's still going to draw power for em.

Ya, I got them for $140 total. They’re like $1000 new each.

By turn them down, you mean don’t set any gain? Isn’t that usually how it’s supposed to be if you match up the RMS and ohms of speakers to the amp?

The only other way to do the set up would be to put 3 speakers on one amp and then find another amp that is a single channel 300 watts RMS at 4 ohms. But then that means selling one of the amps and then buying another one. Would rather not do that.

My bigger question is, do I need more batteries or a stronger alternator? Or both, or neither?

I have 2 of these batteries already in the boat:

And my alternator is 100 amp alternator, that I believe produces 25 amps at idle.

 

[HardofWhoring]

Ya, I got them for $140 total. They’re like $1000 new each.

By turn them down, you mean don’t set any gain? Isn’t that usually how it’s supposed to be if you match up the RMS and ohms of speakers to the amp?

The only other way to do the set up would be to put 3 speakers on one amp and then find another amp that is a single channel 300 watts RMS at 4 ohms. But then that means selling one of the amps and then buying another one. Would rather not do that.

My bigger question is, do I need more batteries or a stronger alternator? Or both, or neither?

I have 2 of these batteries already in the boat:
View attachment 52692

And my alternator is 100 amp alternator, that I believe produces 25 amps at idle.

Watch the video. It's how you set your gains so you know what wattage they are going to be putting out. You don't set em to RMS, you set em to what you want/ to what the speakers RMS is, (or a little more).

Do the math. Go backwards from the video, (on each amp):
AC voltage squared / by ohm rating = (actual) wattage per channel.
wattage per channel x number of channels = total amp output wattage.
total amp output wattage / amp efficiency = amplifier draw in watts.
amplifier draw in watts / voltage = amplifier draw in amps (for each amp. Do all, and add together).

Your amplifier draw in amps is rated in hours, and so is your battery.
total battery storage in amps/reserve capacity / total amplifier draw in amps = how long your system will play, (on full power with full draw). If it's 160 amp draw, and two of those 135 amp batteries.
You can even take any decimal for hours and / by .6 = minutes for your batteries.
270 / 160 = 1.6875. .6875 x .6 = 41 minutes. (1 hr 41 minutes from full to empty).


Two will work, but will it work, LONG ENOUGH..... FOR YOU.

An alternator is going to recharge. A battery is going to store. That's on how you use it, (with the engine off, at idle, or running? Boating isn't as universal an answer as it is in a vehicle).

 

[spkerfreak]

Watch the video. It's how you set your gains so you know what wattage they are going to be putting out. You don't set em to RMS, you set em to what you want/ to what the speakers RMS is, (or a little more).

Do the math. Go backwards from the video, (on each amp):
AC voltage squared / by ohm rating = (actual) wattage per channel.
wattage per channel x number of channels = total amp output wattage.
total amp output wattage / amp efficiency = amplifier draw in watts.
amplifier draw in watts / voltage = amplifier draw in amps (for each amp. Do all, and add together).

Your amplifier draw in amps is rated in hours, and so is your battery.
total battery storage in amps/reserve capacity / total amplifier draw in amps = how long your system will play, (on full power with full draw). If it's 160 amp draw, and two of those 135 amp batteries.
You can even take any decimal for hours and / by .6 = minutes for your batteries.
270 / 160 = 1.6875. .6875 x .6 = 41 minutes. (1 hr 41 minutes from full to empty).


Two will work, but will it work, LONG ENOUGH..... FOR YOU.

An alternator is going to recharge. A battery is going to store. That's on how you use it, (with the engine off, at idle, or running? Boating isn't as universal an answer as it is in a vehicle).

Sorry, didn’t watch the video the first time for some reason. Supper helpful video. I will try that. I guess the RMS rating is oversimplified. What I read before was that the RMS rating was supposed to be the set output at zero gain. But I guess that’s not true. I will def give that a try.

My only concern with this test is that it only plays a flat consistent sound. In music it goes all over the place, so there may be clipping as he said. I’m going to look into the tool that he mentioned to test for clipping, because that’s what really harms speakers. If you have any informative videos about let let me know. Thanks again for the cool video and info about batteries. I think I get it now.