1999 Camry Rainbow Germanium/JL 12W6 Thread! (Picture heavy! 56k beware.)

[headless 10+ year member]

Welp, went and pulled her out at lunch (have i mentioned how much i hate ****ing with door panels?) and have her sitting on the desk. Other than some rust/corrosion on the screws on the wire terminals i don't see anything wrong with it - the cone moves freely up/down when pushed gently. The DVM tells another story - it's showing 1.8ohms //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/frown.gif.a3531fa0534503350665a1e957861287.gif This is different than the last which was a dead short - 0 ohms on the DVM, but it's still obviously way off the 3.5-3.8 i'd expect on a 4 ohm driver //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/frown.gif.a3531fa0534503350665a1e957861287.gif Hope it's covered under warranty - i really love these speakers!

 

[LeX 10+ year member]

I really don't see how it could be a thermal issue. Don told me the Germs would basically laugh at 150/side and could take a lot more. I'm going to be powering them with a 200x2 solid audio and I don't think thats too much, definitely 120/side is nothing and i know you weren't clipping the signal as well as you do

 

[headless 10+ year member]

Heya LeX, yeah, the first one i was sure was a fluke problem with the woofer from the manufacturer @ 120w/side and being careful with gains... but now that the second one has died too i'm starting to second guess the crap out of myself. Problem is, i can't really turn the gain any lower without requiring my HU to go above 65/80 to get to volumes i want, and i'm paranoid about clipping on every step of the chain -- i keep my volume on my empeg @ -3db and then adjust my volume using my cd7000, so i'm sure my input is steady to the cd7k -- i'd be shocked if the eclipse cd7000 clipped it's outputs @ only 60-62/80 and i really don't think the gain on the amp is the issue because of how low it's already set -- for reference, the lowest setting on the 4150xxk is ~8 o clock and i'm only @ 11o-clock.

Re: the 150/side - the germaniums really came into their own once switched over to the 4150xxk -- but you must recall, a 4150xxk bridged is rated @ 320w/side and can push more than that (my birthsheet reads 182-185watts per channel times 4 channels @ 2 ohms though it's only rated @ 4x160!) That said, (a) i got the 4150 from Don for this very purpose and i wasn't warned away from it, confirming your thoughts that these should handle the power. Additionally, I've metered my setup on the input side of the amp to see what it's drawing, and even at the highest volumes that i wouldn't want to listen to beyond 30 seconds or so i was only hitting ~ 50-60 amps @ 12.5 - 13v (woot for some voltage sag) input on the 4150XXK - figure 60% efficiency (it probably gets less in reality) and you've got 55a*13v = 715watts*.6 = 430 watts total = 200 watts per side approx. From what i understand, most class A/B don't really manage 60% efficiency for the most part so i'd even estimate under that :/ i wasn't happy with them on my eclipse EA3422 and if that's all they could handle i would be dissapointed.

 

[LeX 10+ year member]

Heya LeX, yeah, the first one i was sure was a fluke problem with the woofer from the manufacturer @ 120w/side and being careful with gains... but now that the second one has died too i'm starting to second guess the crap out of myself. Problem is, i can't really turn the gain any lower without requiring my HU to go above 65/80 to get to volumes i want, and i'm paranoid about clipping on every step of the chain -- i keep my volume on my empeg @ -3db and then adjust my volume using my cd7000, so i'm sure my input is steady to the cd7k -- i'd be shocked if the eclipse cd7000 clipped it's outputs @ only 60-62/80 and i really don't think the gain on the amp is the issue because of how low it's already set -- for reference, the lowest setting on the 4150xxk is ~8 o clock and i'm only @ 11o-clock.
Re: the 150/side - the germaniums really came into their own once switched over to the 4150xxk -- but you must recall, a 4150xxk bridged is rated @ 320w/side and can push more than that (my birthsheet reads 182-185watts per channel times 4 channels @ 2 ohms though it's only rated @ 4x160!) That said, (a) i got the 4150 from Don for this very purpose and i wasn't warned away from it, confirming your thoughts that these should handle the power. Additionally, I've metered my setup on the input side of the amp to see what it's drawing, and even at the highest volumes that i wouldn't want to listen to beyond 30 seconds or so i was only hitting ~ 50-60 amps @ 12.5 - 13v (woot for some voltage sag) input on the 4150XXK - figure 60% efficiency (it probably gets less in reality) and you've got 55a*13v = 715watts*.6 = 430 watts total = 200 watts per side approx. From what i understand, most class A/B don't really manage 60% efficiency for the most part so i'd even estimate under that :/ i wasn't happy with them on my eclipse EA3422 and if that's all they could handle i would be dissapointed.

everything sounds good to me... I'm not all that technical but I can't see you doing anything wrong. Maybe it's some issue with the hardware and not your install. this stuff is always so confusing :\

 

[slick rick 10+ year member]

50-60 amps is alot IMO for a frontstage of your nature to pull from music only...who knows.

 

[LeX 10+ year member]

that is a lot but he likes to listen really loud it sounds so I can see that amp pulling a good bit since it's fused for 75 amps on the XXK i could imagine him pulling 50amps at over 80% volume especially techno its a huge amount of bass being driven to those front speakers depending on where he crossed it

 

[headless 10+ year member]

Think i fried it Rick? I have no way of testing how much of that power is actually making it through the amp to the speakers, but everything i've read about class A/B amplifiers tells me that the highest efficiency they run at is 70-75%, and then to only expect that in perfectly ideal conditions and at full power. At lower power levels, most people quote 50% efficiency and lower as being common -- if you re-figure my numbers above @ 50% efficiency we'd actually be pretty close 150w/side as they are rated for. - 715*.5 = 357watts output divided by 2 would be ~180watts

Also, while i metered a max of 60a that was only for momentary peak...the vast majority of the time the amp pulls under 25amps even at that volume level -- 50-55 amps were momentary spikes when a particular wide-reaching sweep with many frequencies would come through. It's not like i'm chilling playing a test tone so the amp is pegged @ 50a for 10 seconds or anything! The amp is fused with 3 30a fuses for a max of 90a...so going by that, 55a would be just under 2/3rd of it's max output -- using 320w/side output rating that'd be 211watts per side - but efficiency drops as you get to lower volumes, it's not a direct relationship... it's funny, because your amp will actually tend to get hotter at half power than at 3/4ths in some cases because losses are actually higher @ 1/2 than 3/4 due to lower efficiency. I wish had some better equipment that could test AC RMS on the speaker side. Can't tell for sure without some better equipment; there are just too many variables involved that i can't measure.

 

[slick rick 10+ year member]

I think that song could be clipped or something...however you have mentioned the tweeter protect lights come on. Thus, perhaps the germs can't handle all that power, or you are deaf beyond a reasonable doubt. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif I need to check and see if my tweeter lights come on, but i listen to everything flat and im pushing 120 perside so I doubt it. So you heard no funny noises or distortion at all? Also, have you taken out the mid yet?

 

[headless 10+ year member]

If that song is clipped, we could probably find out since it's digital (mp3) //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif Wonder if there's a 'detect clipping in mp3' program. I'll do some research.

Yep, my tweeter protection lights come on constantly when listening at WAY WAY less volume than that - if the tweeter protection lights indicate what these speakers are really able to handle, i'll be terribly terribly dissapointed. You don't even have to turn them up that loud before the lights glow some. I asked PremierAudio about it in this thread: http://www.caraudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=205905&highlight=glowing and the concensus was that they were supposed to glow any time power was flowing through them because they are lightbulbs -- low power = low or no glow - glowing brighter as more power goes through them. He seemed to think they behaved like fuses - no blown bulbs = not overpowering the tweets too much. My tweeter lights came on even when my amp was set to 2x120 bridged and even came on at 4x50w bi-amping. If the lights really indicate 'that's it, your @ max power', i'm going to call 'wtf' on my 500$ set of speakers. The first woofer died before i added my small boost to 125hz and 160hz, on the old 2x120. I didn't hear any funny noises up until about a second before they cut off -- i heard a crackle once, audio from the woofer died, came back, crackled again and was silenced permanently //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/frown.gif.a3531fa0534503350665a1e957861287.gif I am tempted to go with your assessment that they could not handle the power; it's the only explanation i can come up with considering the 1.8 ohm reading and the fact that the cone still moves freely. If that's the case i'm going to feel fairly mislead //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/frown.gif.a3531fa0534503350665a1e957861287.gif I've seen other people running a 4150 bridged on germaniums so if it turns out they just can't handle it i'ma have to warn them bout it too //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/frown.gif.a3531fa0534503350665a1e957861287.gif

 

[slick rick 10+ year member]

Hmm...well I am biamped with 60x4 and it can get real loud to me. I blew a bulb in 1 xover when i was installing mine last year, but it was due to me miswiring the xover. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/frown.gif.a3531fa0534503350665a1e957861287.gif I will check tonight and sit in the back seat and see if anything lights up under my passenger seat. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif How long were the mids broken in prior to this occuring? Also, were the mids that blew both on the same size, or it happened in both doors?

 

[headless 10+ year member]

heya rick

1. I remember when that happened //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif we talked via PM's about it //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

2. lemme know what you find out; you might be surprised

3. The mid that just died was almost 1 year old. I ran them @ 4x50w (just realised i accidentally typed 4x75w in my last post, fixed it) for more than a month and kept volume low the entire time. Started upping the volume after about 30 hours of play and switched to bridged @ 2x120 about 60 hours of play in (several months)...then the left woofer died and was replaced. That's been in since July without a problem, and i let that one break in at low volumes on the 2x120 setup for more than a month before returning to my normal listening volumes.

4. The first mid was on the left, second mid on the right //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/frown.gif.a3531fa0534503350665a1e957861287.gif

I'd find it really hard to believe that they just couldn't handle the power //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/frown.gif.a3531fa0534503350665a1e957861287.gif I've only got a single JL 12W6 in a sealed box -- and it's the older, not so beefy & loud, v1 version of it on a punch-100! I can't imagine this set of germaniums not being able to keep up with a single sealed SQ oriented 12.

 

[slick rick 10+ year member]

odd...I just swapped out my AVA 15 sealed to an ARC 15 sealed and my Germs have handled each sub with ease. Presently, the ARC sub is overcome by most rock I play at high volumes. I am running 600 watts rms to a fully, fully deadened maxima.

 

[headless 10+ year member]

woopsie double postage

 

[headless 10+ year member]

odd...I just swapped out my AVA 15 sealed to an ARC 15 sealed and my Germs have handled each sub with ease. Presently, the ARC sub is overcome by most rock I play at high volumes. I am running 600 watts rms to a fully, fully deadened maxima.

LOL - maybe it's you who're deaf - to low frequencies //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif LOL seriously though, rock is ear splittingly loud (especially electric guitar) and i wouldn't be surprised if it overwhelmed the sub easily...techno has a different sound entirely and TONS AND TONS of bass and midbass with not so much massive screeching guitarwork... it demands louder volumes to sound 'to the ear' the same -- the human ear tends to perceive higher frequencies as louder even when they are measured as identical dB - so you end up wanting to push higher volumes for the same perceived volume when you're playing mostly midbass and lower midrange frequencies with very little going on above 4khz. Listening to rock made me want to cut 3.15khz & 4khz by a couple of dB because it was so vicious on the ears.

OH, edit: I opened the track in Sound Forge and i'm zoomed all the way in to individual frames of the mp3 track -- there are no square waves/clipping that i can see and i've zoomed in on every peak to the highest resolution to inspect it. None hit 0db and none stay at the same db level for even 2 frames in a row. The track is not clipped.

 

[slick rick 10+ year member]

I have the exact same opinions about the germs for rock...it can hurt the ears some. I read your post above (didnt catch it before) where you compared the DMM reading to this mid and the 1st blown mid...call Don and tell him the story. Everything "appears" ok with the mid right?

edit: so its not the song then...hmm. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/frown.gif.a3531fa0534503350665a1e957861287.gif I was hoping that could be the excuse.