LTO bank vs LiFeP04 for daily system

I would 100% cancel your order on that D4S garbage battery. I can't stand that chomo but putting that aside that battery is not a good idea at all. It should NOT be charged over 14.0 volts.

trash.jpg


Headway cells would be perfect for 14.5 volt.

Build your own. It's super simple. If you need any help feel free to PM me.

 
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I would 100% cancel your order on that D4S garbage battery. I can't stand that chomo but putting that aside that battery is not a good idea at all. It should NOT be charged over 14.0 volts.

Headway cells would be perfect for 14.5 volt.

Build your own. It's super simple. If you need any help feel free to PM me.


It's a matter of available time, Im already struggling to find the time to actually finish the build. Since this is going behind my driver's seat I want it in some kind of case that I can bolt to the car, and having something pre-made-drop-in is what I'm after.

Having a balancer built in is kinda important as well since I like to set it and check once a year or so. I'll have a voltage gauge on the dash reading whatever battery I install.

Matt
 
It's a matter of available time, Im already struggling to find the time to actually finish the build. Since this is going behind my driver's seat I want it in some kind of case that I can bolt to the car, and having something pre-made-drop-in is what I'm after.

Having a balancer built in is kinda important as well since I like to set it and check once a year or so. I'll have a voltage gauge on the dash reading whatever battery I install.

Matt

Easy to build / buy a case. Balancer is $25.
 
Bah, I guess I'm just going to have to bite it then. I'm looking at around 32ah of headway and keeping my AGM. Right now my alt is my biggest concern and I may end up having to spend a good bit to get a H/O to fit my car. A front battery delete would be awesome on multiple fronts, but sometimes my car sits for a week or 2.

I can regulate my alt down to 13.9 or whatever if LTO is going to be a better option. I'm kinda stuck because my available budget is right around 800. That includes alternator and battery. I think I'm going to have to pick one or the other.

Matt
My brother leaves his Civic up here most of the year and only drives it to the occasional show, LTO bank sets here 5 months of winter and fires right up in the spring.

32AH headway would probably be too little to charge with a HO alternator. Rated charge current is .5C ( so for optimum life you'd charge them at 16A) "max" charge current is 5C so even a 150A alternator would possibly be pushing those near their limit charging current. Discharge should be fine to cover 2500W or so. The LTO cells are meant to have about 5X the life expectency of LiFePO cells so I'd say over a 20 year timeframe LTO is going to be a better value even if you're paying almost double per amp hour. The one good point about the Headway is they have those cool ready made lego type blocks to snap a bank together and little jumper bars so assembling a bank should be cheap and simple.

Not sure where you live but LTO also has much better cold weather performance than LiFePO. Really unless you're getting a real bargain on the Headway cells there's no reason to take those over one of the proven LTO cells.
 
My brother leaves his Civic up here most of the year and only drives it to the occasional show, LTO bank sets here 5 months of winter and fires right up in the spring.

32AH headway would probably be too little to charge with a HO alternator. Rated charge current is .5C ( so for optimum life you'd charge them at 16A) "max" charge current is 5C so even a 150A alternator would possibly be pushing those near their limit charging current. Discharge should be fine to cover 2500W or so. The LTO cells are meant to have about 5X the life expectency of LiFePO cells so I'd say over a 20 year timeframe LTO is going to be a better value even if you're paying almost double per amp hour. The one good point about the Headway is they have those cool ready made lego type blocks to snap a bank together and little jumper bars so assembling a bank should be cheap and simple.

Not sure where you live but LTO also has much better cold weather performance than LiFePO. Really unless you're getting a real bargain on the Headway cells there's no reason to take those over one of the proven LTO cells.

I'm in central Florida, so cold isn't really a thing. 120+ In-car Temps are a thing tho.

I still can't figure out LTO vs LiFeP04. I know the voltage difference, but I've seen LTO punctured and not catch on fire so that sounds better to me. I cannot run my voltage above 14.8 or my car will throw a tantrum so going with a 6s pack is a no-go. I will have to double check my cold start voltage, but I beleive it is 14.3. Whatever I buy will get used until I switch cars or upgrade my system again(hopefully never). I guess this has turned into batteries or alternator for the moment. Is a 320a alternator from mechman(assuming it will fit) better than 40ah of LTO or 48 ah of LiFeP04 for daily use? I might be able to stretch it to 80ah of LTO if you have em or 60ah of LiFeP04 from the pre-built guy.

Matt
 
I'm in central Florida, so cold isn't really a thing. 120+ In-car Temps are a thing tho.

I still can't figure out LTO vs LiFeP04. I know the voltage difference, but I've seen LTO punctured and not catch on fire so that sounds better to me. I cannot run my voltage above 14.8 or my car will throw a tantrum so going with a 6s pack is a no-go. I will have to double check my cold start voltage, but I beleive it is 14.3. Whatever I buy will get used until I switch cars or upgrade my system again(hopefully never). I guess this has turned into batteries or alternator for the moment. Is a 320a alternator from mechman(assuming it will fit) better than 40ah of LTO or 48 ah of LiFeP04 for daily use? I might be able to stretch it to 80ah of LTO if you have em or 60ah of LiFeP04 from the pre-built guy.

Matt

Charge current is limited by the particular cells rating the red 38120hp headways cells have a charge current of 10c. This means 32a can handle 320amp

Lto normally is larger in individual cell size and capacity and typically has higher c rating for charge and discharge.

Lto is hands down the better battery, but if you aren't charging above 15v you may as well keep to lifepo4. Lto float voltage is 14.4v in 6s so you need to charge higher to effectively top the battery off rapidly during transient music.

Without looking at cells or ah we can see the power difference using ohm law.

Lifepo4
500amp×13.8v float=6900w
Lto
500amp×14.4v float=7200w

And both chemistry will hold slightly higher voltage. But the LTO has the advantage of starting higher

Lifepo4 will charge to 14.6v and will drop to 13.8v before voltage hits a brick wall. It will hold 13.8 much better than agm. It can hold higher voltage but that's the point in which the battery is fully in use.

Battery ah need depends on individual cell rating.

Say you need 500amp (500amp×13.8v=6900w) to support your goal headway cells are easy 500amp÷10c rating=50ah you can subtract the agm ah and the alt amp rating from the amp draw rating.

500amp-120amp alt=380amp
380amp-80ah agm= 300amp
300amp÷10c= 30ah lithium bank.

I'm using headway cells for this equation as I believe they are the best for your situation. I also don't like counting the agm into the equation and perfer to take 20amp off the alt for just running the cars systems

As stated before I'd suggest a 48-56ah headway setup.

Lifepo4 is just as safe as lto. They aren't prismatics or pouches. That is why I only suggested these 2 chemistries. Cmax cells are great but they are much more dangerous.
 
My brother leaves his Civic up here most of the year and only drives it to the occasional show, LTO bank sets here 5 months of winter and fires right up in the spring.

32AH headway would probably be too little to charge with a HO alternator. Rated charge current is .5C ( so for optimum life you'd charge them at 16A) "max" charge current is 5C so even a 150A alternator would possibly be pushing those near their limit charging current. Discharge should be fine to cover 2500W or so. The LTO cells are meant to have about 5X the life expectency of LiFePO cells so I'd say over a 20 year timeframe LTO is going to be a better value even if you're paying almost double per amp hour. The one good point about the Headway is they have those cool ready made lego type blocks to snap a bank together and little jumper bars so assembling a bank should be cheap and simple.

Not sure where you live but LTO also has much better cold weather performance than LiFePO. Really unless you're getting a real bargain on the Headway cells there's no reason to take those over one of the proven LTO cells.

The red headway 38120hp cells have a max charge of 10c

The blue 38120s are 5c.

Don't get the blue ones
 
Currently Milo (itty-bitty-boom) is a pretty well known and trustworthy builder..

He is quite knowledgeable and his charts line up well for the headway based on the simple fact that headways are a 10c cell

So
1000w/13.8v=72.4 amp draw leaving headroom

Each 4s1p 8ah cell row is good for 80ah so it's simple math
 
OK, I got ahold of the guy that made my HO alt for the Malibu 10 years ago. I have to pull my alt and bring it to him to double check the case size(******* VW has 6 different cases with the same OD but 6 different ID/lengths, and some share part numbers...). At this moment I think I'm going with LiFeP04 over LTO simply because the Smart 5 doesn't benefit at all from anything over 12.6v and my cars ECU will be happier under 14.5. I should have no issue getting 200a out of an alt from him.

Once I get the quote for the alt and find out what I can get I can make a better decision on cells and AH. I'm leaning towards something in the 20-30ah range if I can get a 240a alt, but once I have some numbers I can figure it out.

Matt
 
OK, I got ahold of the guy that made my HO alt for the Malibu 10 years ago. I have to pull my alt and bring it to him to double check the case size(******* VW has 6 different cases with the same OD but 6 different ID/lengths, and some share part numbers...). At this moment I think I'm going with LiFeP04 over LTO simply because the Smart 5 doesn't benefit at all from anything over 12.6v and my cars ECU will be happier under 14.5. I should have no issue getting 200a out of an alt from him.

Once I get the quote for the alt and find out what I can get I can make a better decision on cells and AH. I'm leaning towards something in the 20-30ah range if I can get a 240a alt, but once I have some numbers I can figure it out.

Matt

I'm not super active these days but I'll help where I can.

Lithium is expensive but it's even more expensive if you have to do it over again.

A bigger alt is always a help
 
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