LTO bank vs LiFeP04 for daily system

mat3833

CarAudio.com Elite
10+ year member
Mar 12, 2008
1,646
255
So I'm back in thinking mode. The alternator I ordered doesn't fit the transverse 1.8t without some rather annoying modifications, and a motor mount switch. Since I'm not interested in changing back to a "factory style" motor mount it's looking like I'm limited to a 120a factory "upgrade" or maybe a local guy can get me 180ish. I currently have one of the D4S LTO's on order, but I'm wondering if I'm going to need more for daily use. Demos will be with the car running, and I will have a voltage gauge on the dash.

I'll be running a Smart 5 at 2 ohm, and an audison APF8.9 bit. Total peak RMS should be around 5500w if I'm actually pushing the subs and stage. I don't expect I'll be running much more than 2k to the subs and the stage should sit around 5-600w for normal use possibly less.

Currently I have a 90a alternator and my charging voltage peaks at 14.5. I have a Duracell AGM up front, the big 3 done, and a ground point in the rear that meters at .1 ohms. The batteries I'm adding will be mounted behind the drivers seat so I'm a bit wary of using LiFeP04.

As much as I would love to build a custom bank of something, I just don't have the time right now. I need something off the shelf or pre-made.

Matt
 

winkychevelle

CarAudio.com Veteran
10+ year member
Jun 21, 2009
3,932
129
So I'm back in thinking mode. The alternator I ordered doesn't fit the transverse 1.8t without some rather annoying modifications, and a motor mount switch. Since I'm not interested in changing back to a "factory style" motor mount it's looking like I'm limited to a 120a factory "upgrade" or maybe a local guy can get me 180ish. I currently have one of the D4S LTO's on order, but I'm wondering if I'm going to need more for daily use. Demos will be with the car running, and I will have a voltage gauge on the dash.

I'll be running a Smart 5 at 2 ohm, and an audison APF8.9 bit. Total peak RMS should be around 5500w if I'm actually pushing the subs and stage. I don't expect I'll be running much more than 2k to the subs and the stage should sit around 5-600w for normal use possibly less.

Currently I have a 90a alternator and my charging voltage peaks at 14.5. I have a Duracell AGM up front, the big 3 done, and a ground point in the rear that meters at .1 ohms. The batteries I'm adding will be mounted behind the drivers seat so I'm a bit wary of using LiFeP04.

As much as I would love to build a custom bank of something, I just don't have the time right now. I need something off the shelf or pre-made.

Matt
Cancel your order for the d4s garbage. Jp has no business trying to sell lithium it is well known that he sells the 6.0 for factory charge voltage but they fail at anything above 14v. Same for xspowers 5s titan8 batteries. Those are only designed for 14v max nothing more.

If you are going to charge at least then 14.6v you need lifepo4 cell. Either lishen or headway 38120hp

With 120 amp alt I'd suggest 48-56ah of lifepo4. And you can keep your a though you won't need it.


Contact this guy
↓↓↓↓

 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Popwarhomie

mat3833

CarAudio.com Elite
10+ year member
Mar 12, 2008
1,646
255
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #3
Cancel your order for the d4s garbage and save your money
As helpful as that is, if I'm not going to use it I have someone to buy it. I'm well aware of the general opinion on the D4S "garbage" on here, but I'm looking for information not opinion here. I could get cells and build a bank and have exactly what I need/want, but that's not an option for me. I'm limited to off the shelf stuff that I can open and install quickly.

For the price and what third party tests I've seen the D4S LTO is decent. No, it's not the best and you can buy better. But a tree fell on my house so a large chunk of my "finish the Jetta" fund got deleted so I'm fine with less than optimal in this case.

Matt
 

mat3833

CarAudio.com Elite
10+ year member
Mar 12, 2008
1,646
255
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #4
Cancel your order for the d4s garbage. Jp has no business trying to sell lithium it is well known that he sells the 6.0 for factory charge voltage but they fail at anything above 14v. Same for xspowers 5s titan8 batteries. Those are only designed for 14v max nothing more.

If you are going to charge at least then 14.6v you need lifepo4 cell. Either lishen or headway 38120hp

With 120 amp alt I'd suggest 48-56ah of lifepo4. And you can keep your a though you won't need it.


Contact this guy
↓↓↓↓

Thanks for the edit.

I'll shoot that guy a message. I also don't have an issue regulating my alt down to 13.5 if needed. I'm not gaining any extra power by running over 12v on the smart 5 and the few extra watts won't matter on my stage anyway.

There is alot of back and forth about the lifespan change. Unfortunately it's kinda a new technology so nobody really knows what we can expect. I'd rather have LTO since they tend to just puff smoke and not catch on fire and they will literally be right behind my ass.

Matt
 
  • Wow
Reactions: audiobaun

winkychevelle

CarAudio.com Veteran
10+ year member
Jun 21, 2009
3,932
129
As helpful as that is, if I'm not going to use it I have someone to buy it. I'm well aware of the general opinion on the D4S "garbage" on here, but I'm looking for information not opinion here. I could get cells and build a bank and have exactly what I need/want, but that's not an option for me. I'm limited to off the shelf stuff that I can open and install quickly.

For the price and what third party tests I've seen the D4S LTO is decent. No, it's not the best and you can buy better. But a tree fell on my house so a large chunk of my "finish the Jetta" fund got deleted so I'm fine with less than optimal in this case.

Matt
As much as I dislike jp. I'm not calling d4s trash I'm calling the LTO 6.0 trash. I've seen numerous fail and d4s will not back up the product.

You can buy built banks that are much better than that 6.0 the guy I linked build custom banks and likely has one on hand
 
  • Like
  • Thanks
Reactions: audiobaun and Buck

winkychevelle

CarAudio.com Veteran
10+ year member
Jun 21, 2009
3,932
129
Thanks for the edit.

I'll shoot that guy a message. I also don't have an issue regulating my alt down to 13.5 if needed. I'm not gaining any extra power by running over 12v on the smart 5 and the few extra watts won't matter on my stage anyway.

There is alot of back and forth about the lifespan change. Unfortunately it's kinda a new technology so nobody really knows what we can expect. I'd rather have LTO since they tend to just puff smoke and not catch on fire and they will literally be right behind my ass.

Matt
These batteries are not new tech they have been around for years. But in the car audio scenes they are new and companies like xs and d4s are taking advantage of the ignorance and confusion.

I could show you a single 6s 6ah bank that could burst 420amp discharge unlike the d4s 6.0. but it's a 6s lto and would need to be charged to at least 15v and would only get stronger the closer to 16v you got. But you wouldn't have storage only burst output with just 1 bank.

A 4s 8ah headway bank can only burst 80amp but it's a lower voltage and has more storage with just 1 bank.

48ah of 4s 8ah headway cells burst 480amp at 13.8v (10c)
4s6p 24cells

48ah of 6s 6ah shequan cells burst at 3360amp at 15.6v (70c)
6s8p 48cells

Both store that same amount of energy but that specific lto can discharge much faster.
 
  • Thanks
Reactions: audiobaun

some dude

CarAudio.com Regular
Sep 7, 2020
168
87
Where do you learn about these battery chemistry?
I'd love to do some reading if you have sources.
 

winkychevelle

CarAudio.com Veteran
10+ year member
Jun 21, 2009
3,932
129
Where do you learn about these battery chemistry?
I'd love to do some reading if you have sources.
It's all in the specs of the cells min/max voltage per cell. X the number of cells gives you the min/max charge voltage.

People have been disecting the d4s and xs batts for a while. I used to think th xs batt was amazing but after seeing it cracked open it's lackluster. A decent battery but nothing amazing and the 5s is only for low voltage cars 14v and down because the Toshiba scib cells are 2.8v max each. 2.8v×5s=14v. The 6s is 16.8v max

Pretty much all lto is going to be 14v max in 5s and 16.8v max in 6s

Lithium iron phosphate lifepo4 run in 4s to charge at 14.4max though they have been proven to handle up to 14.6v. 4s lifepo4 also work well with agm since float voltage is 13.8v.

Down side is lifepo4 has low c rating usually a max of 10 compared to lto which is typically 15c up to 70c in the best cells.

Facebook has numerous lithium groups and several people who do loads of test as well as it's a hotspot for reported failures so you can learn from others mistakes.
 

hispls

CarAudio.com Veteran
5,000+ posts
10+ year member
Sep 10, 2009
12,799
1,206
I currently have one of the D4S LTO's on order,
Cool, how many amp hours? Nominal and max voltage? C ratings? If these things are not published you should not be buying a battery from that person.
 

mat3833

CarAudio.com Elite
10+ year member
Mar 12, 2008
1,646
255
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #10
This is the link the guy sent me.


I sent him an email asking what his recommendation would be for what i listed here. His response: add up the RMS of your amps and match it to the chart... Is that just how battery guys do it now? Yea, my amps are capable of 6500-7500w of rated power, but I'll never use that much. Can anyone have a discussion on capacity and chemistry?

Matt
 

hispls

CarAudio.com Veteran
5,000+ posts
10+ year member
Sep 10, 2009
12,799
1,206
Is that just how battery guys do it now?
That's how shysters try to polish a turd.

But the headway cells are at least known specs so you should be able to sort this out how big of a bank you want.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: audiobaun

mat3833

CarAudio.com Elite
10+ year member
Mar 12, 2008
1,646
255
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #12
That's how shysters try to polish a turd.

But the headway cells are at least known specs so you should be able to sort this out how big of a bank you want.
I don't suppose you want to build a bank, lol?

Don't get me wrong, the guy looks to put out nice stuff. Includes a volt/amp meter, balancer, etc. But I don't need a bank to support the Max RMS I can run, I need a bank to support my daily usage that can deal with a short demo now and again. Hell, alternator output is the biggest factor in "battery" performance. It doesn't help to have a thousand AH of capacity if you don't have an alternator to charge it...

Matt
 
  • Like
Reactions: audiobaun

mat3833

CarAudio.com Elite
10+ year member
Mar 12, 2008
1,646
255
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #13
Good lord this is painful:

Me:
That's a pretty simple thing to do but it doesn't really correlate to daily use. My amps can put out an easy 6k continuous power and probably north of 10k dynamic, but I wont be using anywhere near that daily listening.

Him:
Ok,. If you'd rather I built the size for (example) 3500 daily watts,... I'm ok with that,... Or if you'd rather I over build it,.. either way I'll build you what you'd like... :)



OK, so let's shift gears here.

Taramps smart 5 has been dynoed at 5500-6k sine wave power and almost double that in "dynamic" power.

My Audison is rated at 260x4 into 2 ohm or 130x8 into 4 ohm.

Assuming I run absolutely balls out the window on both, I can expect roughly 7000w of sine wave power. When I was running the smart 3 and the audison with just my AGM up front I never saw voltage drop below 12.9 while giving a demo. While driving and listening to music I never saw below 13.5ish.

I don't really want to over-battery too much since I'm not going to be parked and playing very often. This is just adding support so I can play while driving and not worry about anything.

Matt
 
  • Like
Reactions: audiobaun

hispls

CarAudio.com Veteran
5,000+ posts
10+ year member
Sep 10, 2009
12,799
1,206
I don't suppose you want to build a bank, lol?
I want to build several but my back has been hurting for the past couple months and I'm trying to just get back caught up with regular work and a few home improvement projects that need doing.

I can sell you 5 Yinglong cells for 250$ shipped, price out some bus bars and assembly should be no more complex than connecting the + to - between cells like you're loading D cells in a maglite. 5S of LTO cells should be good if you charge no higher than 14.4V.

Personally I'd prefer to see a front battery delete and 2 banks. Like I said, I really want to build some stuff and do real world testing but I'd feel safer about my reserve with 80AH as opposed to 40 and I would probably not attempt to mix and match battery styles.

Having lots of reserve is probably the single best thing you can do all around as far as utility and being the easiest on your electrical system. Going too small on battery bank isn't so much of a worry as far as putting too much load on it and exceeding it's maximum burst current, but more damaging to your cells would be to go so small that whatever alternator you have exceeds its max charge rating. Overcharging batteries will kill them a lot faster than trying to draw too heavy of a load off them (that'll more likely damage your amplifier(s))
 

mat3833

CarAudio.com Elite
10+ year member
Mar 12, 2008
1,646
255
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #15
Bah, I guess I'm just going to have to bite it then. I'm looking at around 32ah of headway and keeping my AGM. Right now my alt is my biggest concern and I may end up having to spend a good bit to get a H/O to fit my car. A front battery delete would be awesome on multiple fronts, but sometimes my car sits for a week or 2.

I can regulate my alt down to 13.9 or whatever if LTO is going to be a better option. I'm kinda stuck because my available budget is right around 800. That includes alternator and battery. I think I'm going to have to pick one or the other.

Matt
 

Create an account or login to comment

You must be a member in order to leave a comment

Create account

Create an account on our community. It's easy!

Log in

Already have an account? Log in here.

Similar threads
  Title Replies Date
hispls FOR SALE Some LTO/Lithium Titanate cells 23
C Lithium LTO batts/ HO alt 15
K9_Candyman LTO Charger 3
K9_Candyman Front battery delete / LTO 6
John Doe LTO Battery keeps dying? HELP 13

Similar threads

Latest threads

Latest classifieds