Why Dont People Use Rear Fill?

[samson 10+ year member]

Eh, it's simply bragging rights and sales incentive.
"Well our car has 12 speakers total, while this other one you were looking at only has 6 and it costs $2500 more!"

lol, maybe so. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

 

[helotaxi 5,000+ posts]

You know, I find it amazing that the auto industry hasn't caught on to this sound stage thing. Think of all the money they could save by not putting speakers in the back of their cars. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/banghead.gif.8606515f668c74f6de0281deb475b6fd.gif

It's the same reason all the noobs think that they MUST have rear speakers and that 3-way coaxes are still sold and the Bose factory systems are considered a high end upgrade. The mainstream simply doesn't know any better. They think that a HT setup is good for listening to music.

If you don't think that staging is present in well recorded music (notice I said well recorded, which rules out a lot of the current crap being sold) put on a decent, they don't even have to be good, set of headphones and listen to a good recording. If you can't place the individual instruments in the soundstage, you don't know what you are listening for and you are really out of your element talking about staging and trying to claim that it is all a myth.

Rear speakers will not help that staging. They also will not help with tonal balance. They don't convey the recorded ambiance of the music either because they are not playing only the ambiance effects of the recording.

I won't say "don't run rear fill." It's your system, do what you want. But I will say that if you are looking to get the best performance from your system with music, they are not needed and adding them will require extra work to just get the freq response and staging back to where it was before they were added and no benefit is to be gained.

 

[luvinthebass 5,000+ posts]

Damaged hearing? Can't tell the difference? Are you serious? That's coming off somewhat pompous, don't you think? And I'm not exactly sure what the sub comments have to do with rear fill, either? I can perceive left from right AND front to back, thank you very much. I don't think anybody is pushing an overbearing rear set-up. Personally, I'd be leary to add anything in a sedan under the rear glass. But if you sat in my truck, I don't think you could even tell with any certainty if my rear speakers we're even turned on.
You know, I find it amazing that the auto industry hasn't caught on to this sound stage thing. Think of all the money they could save by not putting speakers in the back of their cars. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/banghead.gif.8606515f668c74f6de0281deb475b6fd.gif

when i used to have rear fill my ears would ring after playin music and it wasn't from the bass since bass takes about 130 some deebeez to get your ears ringing well with me, now with my front stage it's like a concert vocals right in the middle of the dash, only when i roll down my windows about half way the imagin is great plus removin rear fill i got added subbass into the cabin area:veryhapp:

 

[samson 10+ year member]

All I can say is I'm pretty picky about sound quality. I like a flat resonse from top to bottom. Dips and peaks drive me crazy. I know what I like to hear. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[luvinthebass 5,000+ posts]

i always have a tendency to crank up the highs if the song doesn't have that much treble

 

[req 5,000+ posts]

All I can say is I'm pretty picky about sound quality. I like a flat resonse from top to bottom. Dips and peaks drive me crazy. I know what I like to hear. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

well you keep on thinking that.

mr coustic //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/*******.gif.a649d21efc0d1fd4890a6428166586c1.gif

i dont run rear fill because, simply, it will pull my soundstage to the rear. i have a volksawen GTi. its a coupe. if you cant hear the HLCD's from the back seat. you are deaf. at 109db\1w\1m and having ~35w... you will hear them. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rage.gif.0ad8a6e5565b5fddce406566fdd05149.gif

but i could hook up my stock rear mids to the headunit and fade it forward and turn the internal amp on when my friends arent back there.

but hell. i just plain dont care what they want. maybe ill have them take the panels off and run the **** wire if they want to hear those speakers so **** bad lol. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/cool.gif.3bcaf8f141236c00f8044d07150e34f7.gif

as helotaxi said. my bass is not overly powerful. imo - its just right. my front stage is (well, it will be when i get the shit finished) loud enough.

just spend more monies on your front stage and dont waste it on other crap. and you will see what we mean.

 

[AudioXtremes 10+ year member]

Wasn't it said by someone on here a while ago that only gheys enjoy "rear fill"? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

On a more serious note, all the reasons to not have it have already been stated, so I'll just make a brief summary:

1. Source is almost always stereo... it doesn't serve a purpose of necessity.

2. Screws up imaging... I've never been to a concert and stood with my back to the stage.

3. Detracts from the money you can spend on the front stage... allows for better front speakers and amp.

4. You can use the rear speaker openings (if in the rear deck) to vent sub pressure into the cabin.

5. If you don't have a sub stage, then an entry level sub and amp will often cost you in the same ballpark as a good set of rear speakers and amp.

1. So what

2. I've never been to a concert, I grew up listening to music in a car or HT so to me thats the way music is supposed to sound. Does that make it wrong? If you say yes please get a gun and use appropriately to kill yourself.

3. I have all the money I need to buy whatever speakers I want. Not bragging, I'm not rich.

4. Hatchback FTW!

5. Please, if you can afford a sub and amp for the price of rear fill your sub sucks asszorz.

I have rear speakers because its I watch movies and have a 5.1 proccessor. Yes I have a center channel behind my center vents.

 

[samson 10+ year member]

just spend more monies on your front stage and dont waste it on other crap. and you will see what we mean.

Hey now, I REALLY like that little coustic sub. I used some of their stuff in the old days, thought I'd gambled and it payed off. It works well with my system.

Look man, you think I don't know what sounds good, I think it's all in your head. Let's agree to disagree because we're not going to agree. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

 

[DejaWiz 5,000+ posts]

1. So what

2. I've never been to a concert, I grew up listening to music in a car or HT so to me thats the way music is supposed to sound. Does that make it wrong? If you say yes please get a gun and use appropriately to kill yourself.

3. I have all the money I need to buy whatever speakers I want. Not bragging, I'm not rich.

4. Hatchback FTW!

5. Please, if you can afford a sub and amp for the price of rear fill your sub sucks asszorz.

1. Read it again.

2. In response to the title of this thread I never said it was wrong for everyone.. just for me. I have a 5.1 HT and I've been to numerous concerts.... I can say it's my opinion that rear fill in a car is a complete waste of time and money.

3. Good! I'm happy for you. I really am. Unfortuantely many don't share that same luxury and have to make the most of what their budget alots.

4. Agreed. Same here.

5. Not necessarily.... I've heard $150-200 sub stages that sounded decent and blended well with the rest of the system (Mach5 + Profile with decent installation and tuning, for example). Just because it's not capable of winning an SPL or SQ competition does not automatically classify it as a shitty setup. If you say yes it does, please refer to and follow your advice in the last line of your response to #2.

I have rear speakers because its I watch movies and have a 5.1 proccessor. Yes I have a center channel behind my center vents.

And there's a big difference with running a 5.1 processor or just a stereo capable HU. As stated previously, you are running a setup that is quite rare in a mobile environment.

 

[WantedIsHere]

i like rear fill personally... If you like it run it....

 

[req 5,000+ posts]

Hey now, I REALLY like that little coustic sub. I used some of their stuff in the old days, thought I'd gambled and it payed off. It works well with my system.

Look man, you think I don't know what sounds good, I think it's all in your head. Let's agree to disagree because we're not going to agree. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

i will have to say i think YOU know what sound good to YOU. because that is objective. but regardless of that - stereo sound is STEREO SOUND. (ie: TWO channels) i dont know any other way it can be said. the name is even derrived by the definition.

i wont tell you what you think sounds good. ill only tell you what STEREO is supposed to sound like. it is factual to say, that stereo sound is RECORDED with two channels. a left and a right. it is factual to say, that the people who recorded it, recorded it to replay as STEREO playback. it is factual to say, the only HIGH FIDELITY (ie, as close to the origional recording as possible) playback, would assume a STEREO frontstage (in home or in car) with a summed sub output (wich is not always needed) and on top of that, it should be as flat as possible from 20hz to 20khz.

those are facts. if you want to argue with me about those facts. go right ahead. but they are facts. just as simple as that. if they are recorded in stereo - they were MEANT to play back in stereo. its not impossible to change that. but dare i say, it is the wrong way to do it? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/uhoh.gif.c07307dd22ee7e63e22fc8e9c614d1fd.gif

 

[samson 10+ year member]

The only thing I would argue is that you could not hear the rear channels in my vehicle. You hear left and right.

 

[W8 a minute 10+ year member]

Thats because 4 speakers playing a stereo signal is still stereo. Just as four speakers playing a mono signal is still mono. My beef is with people saying they can "place" instruments on an imaginary stage when they were all recorded in mono in a sound booth.

But he is correct in saying the music was mixed using 2 monitors (l and r) and therefore intended to be played the same way. But you are also correct in saying they are still left and right and you don't neccessarly "hear" instruments in the rear.

There's much much more to this such as frequency wavelength vs interior length, speaker path lengths, frequency anomolies between left and right channel (very important), etc. but i'm at work and will have to wait until later to debate and learn.

 

[headless 10+ year member]

While instruments may be recorded in mono in the soundbooth, they are then 'virtually placed' in the sound field by the sound engineer to re-build the lost staging. If you think that because 5 instruments are recorded separately and then mastered into a single track that those 5 instruments could not be placed in different positions virtually after the recording stage, you may need to do some research. Most recording studios use multiple mics to give the instruments different 'color' too, not a single source.

 

[W8 a minute 10+ year member]

Most studio recordings aren't any better. Everything is recorded separately and then mixed through the board, eq'd, mixed again, effects added, mixed and eq'd again. Then the engineer does his best to create a fake sound stage that was never there to begin with.

Sure, there are some studio and live recordings that are recorded with only 2 mic's but you can count those on two hands. And the music isn't all that appealing to 90% of the people in the world.

As you can see I've already mentioned that, thanks. And this process isn't much more elaborate than the balance knob on your head unit. Delay can be added to either the left or right channel for any single instrument also. Using multiple mic's is for TONE, not imaging.

What most people refer to as a good sound stage or good imaging is actually a lack of localization. Localization is when you get a vehicle and your ears point you directly to the speakers. Your mind can tell exactly where the speakers are located by the sound. This is caused by peaks in the frequency response that are isolated to one side or the other. Kind of like when someone hits the wrong key while playing piano. Everyone can hear it and knows it's wrong. It stands out like a sore thumb.

For example, you run an RTA measurement on your system and you discover a peak at 3000hz on the left side only. Your ears will be consistently pulled to the left side throwing off your "imaging" completely. Just like that bad piano note. This is why it's best to run a separate EQ for each side and IMHO just as important as path lengths or speaker placement if not more. If you can get in a car you've never been in before, close your eyes, and find the speakers just by listening this is probably the reason why. In a well Eq'd system you should not be able to find the speakers. They should disappear completely. Back in the day competitors used to hand match drivers so the left side would be nearly perfect with the right side before the tweaking even began.

I sat in Richard Clark's Buick, in fact I farted in it. I know what good imaging should be...and he had speakers behind your head. It's all about the frequencies.

Note: these are the ramblings of a mere mortal and are mostly opinion. Feel free to disagree. I enjoy a good debate. It's the best way to learn.