Where to buy RAINBOW AMPS?

[helotaxi 5,000+ posts]

the two amps can have different audiable sounds that the "specs" don't show.

Manufacturers' specs aren't worth the paper that they're written on 90%+ of the time, don't care who the manufacturer is. Measured performance is what tells the truth. In every case where someone can identify a difference in the sound accurately and consistently, there is a very measurable difference in actual performance. I don't care that the average consumer doesn't have the tools to do the measurement, the difference still exists and it's not some cosmic mystery. If you consistently hear a difference between two amps, one is not performing correctly. If an amp has a definable character, it is broken.

 

[krisfnbz 10+ year member]

Is it the speakers distorting or the HU? You can turn down the gain and use the extra power potential of the amp as headroom. Crossover settings have a ton to do with midrange and tweeter power handling. Higher freq, higher power handling.

I dont think the HU is distorting, probably the speakers. I also have the crossovers set to medium...its a switch with the rainbows. I guess briding the amp and setting the gain down would give less distortion and sound a bit better with more headroom..

 

[azbass 5,000+ posts]

PM 6spdcoupe for prices/etc.
Why do you want to change out the Kicker ?

eeeew kicker? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

 

[helotaxi 5,000+ posts]

I dont think the HU is distorting,

Don't be so quick to dismiss the HU sounding bad at higher volumes. The way to find out (without an o-scope) is to turn the gain way down and turn the HU volume up. If you get distortion at low power but high volume on the HU, you know that it is the source. Very few HUs can be turned up near full without the preouts sending out a clipped signal.

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

given that there are two reputable companies, with two amps that have the same basics specs, the two amps can have different audiable sounds that the "specs" don't show.

As helotaxi said; Two amps that measure the same (ie within inaudible tolerances) will sound the same. Every single time.

If your point is "But if the common man doesn't have the equipment to make sure that both amps are setup identically, then the possibility is there that they will sound different" then yes, you are correct. But the issue then becomes a difference in the setup of the amplifiers and not amplifier differences themselves. Might sound like I'm arguing semantics, but it's not. The potential exists to achieve identical results, and failing to do so is a failure in the setup and not the amplifiers. Two amplifiers setup differently are going to sound different due to the setup.

I reolize the theory and in the lab it all works, but in the real world, not so much.

Actually the lab's explicit purpose is to predict results in the real world by way of controlling variables, etc. Lab results are 100% repeatable in the real world and tell us exactly what the real-world results should be.

Failing to see the same results in the "real world" is again a failure in the real-world setup and not a failure of the results.

my opinion, keeping in mind opinions are like a&% holes and everyone has one.

I can have the opinion Earth is the center of the solar system. Having an opinion doesn't mean strong evidence to the contrary exists //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

 

[kmanian 5,000+ posts]

As helotaxi said; Two amps that measure the same (ie within inaudible tolerances) will sound the same. Every single time.
If your point is "But if the common man doesn't have the equipment to make sure that both amps are setup identically, then the possibility is there that they will sound different" then yes, you are correct. But the issue then becomes a difference in the setup of the amplifiers and not amplifier differences themselves. Might sound like I'm arguing semantics, but it's not. The potential exists to achieve identical results, and failing to do so is a failure in the setup and not the amplifiers. Two amplifiers setup differently are going to sound different due to the setup.

Actually the lab's explicit purpose is to predict results in the real world by way of controlling variables, etc. Lab results are 100% repeatable in the real world and tell us exactly what the real-world results should be.

Failing to see the same results in the "real world" is again a failure in the real-world setup and not a failure of the results.

I can have the opinion Earth is the center of the solar system. Having an opinion doesn't mean strong evidence to the contrary exists //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

You are so very correct on all counts, your technical knowledge obviously far exceeds mine. It has been both a pleasure, and enlightning to go through this process. Thank you both. I do still feel for the common man, reading through all the hype and making educated decisions based on fact not fiction is still a very daunting task. I see guys buying, selling and trading amps that by definition are not moves upward, or laterally rather often downwards. I realize its beating the same horse that has been beat 20 times before. It seams that the true science hasn't reached the masses, even here on CA.

Thanks again,

it's been my pleasure

 

[Rich B 5,000+ posts]

As helotaxi said; Two amps that measure the same (ie within inaudible tolerances) will sound the same. Every single time.

Do you believe that passive speaker crossovers sound better if they use poly capacitors in them than cheaper non-polarized electrolytic caps?

They measure the same too.

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[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

If two anything measure the same they're going to sound the same. Crossover components, speaker wire, RCA's, amplifiers, preamps, etc. There's nothing going on inside an electrical component that is beyond our ability to measure and identify the differences (or lack thereof). If they do sound different, it's due to very well understood and defined differences that can be captured with a measurement of the device. There's no magic. No cosmic mysteries. No fairy dust or golden ears. Nothing going on in there that we can't define by measurement and that isn't well understood and defined by the laws of physics.

If you believe otherwise, you're only fooling yourself.

 

[kmanian 5,000+ posts]

This thread is 3 pages long now, I just couldn't imagine if we were having a conversation about religion LOL

 

[Rich B 5,000+ posts]

If two anything measure the same they're going to sound the same.

For the sake of argument........

How do you know that the measurements are measuring what you hear?

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

 

[kmanian 5,000+ posts]

For the sake of argument........
How do you know that the measurements are measuring what you hear?

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

Are you shre you want to go there, you will not change anyones mind. I am totally with your train of thought, good luck though

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

For the sake of argument........
How do you know that the measurements are measuring what you hear?

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Because the performance of the device can be completely characterized by measurement...hence there must be a measurable difference of a certain level (beyond the threshold of audibility) for it to alter the "sound" of the device.

Are there some mysterious, yet-undiscovered laws of physics at play here ?

If the designers of this equipment were unable to characterize the performance of the device they are manufacturing or designing by measurement, due to these mysterious phenomenon that are beyond measurability yet are clearly audible, how exactly are they able to design them in the first place ?

 

[helotaxi 5,000+ posts]

Obviously there is a crystal ball out there that allows designers to know what something will sound like without measurable parameters to define it all. All amp designs are merely random stabs in the dark with no mind paid to science or physics. It's just a magic box that you plug a source into and speakers into. No one knows how they work and only sorcerers can make them...

That is what arguing that differences that can't be measured can be heard and that what we are measuring is not what we're hearing boils down to. If the above seems ludicrous to you, you are beginning to understand how silly your argument sounds to people who understand the reality of this stuff.

Yes, you can hear the difference between two amps; however in every instance where a difference is heard that difference can be quantified in a significant measurable difference in THD, noise, frequency response or power. If two amps measure the same, they will sound the same.

 

[Rich B 5,000+ posts]

Amplifier Sound - What Are The Influences?
The Components of Sound

When people talk about the sound of an amplifier, there are many different terms used. For a typical (high quality) amplifier, the sound may be described as "smeared", or having "air" or "authoritative" bass. These terms - although describing a listener's experience - have no direct meaning in electrical terms.

Electrically, we can discuss distortion, phase shift, current capability, slew rate and a myriad of other known phenomena. I don't have any real idea as to how we can directly link these to the common terms used by reviewers and listeners.

Some writers have claimed that all amplifiers actually sound the same, and to some extent (comparing apples with apples) this is "proven" in double-blind listening tests. I am a great believer in this technique, but there are some differences that cannot be readily explained. An amp that is deemed "identical" to another in a test situation, may sound completely different in a normal listening environment. It is these differences that are the hardest to deal with, since we do not always measure some of the things that can have a big influence on the sound.

For example; It is rare that testing is done on an amplifier's clipping performance - how the amp recovers from a brief transient overload. I have stated elsewhere that a hi-fi amplifier should never clip in normal usage - nice try, but it IS going to happen, and often is more common than we might think. Use a good clipping indicator on the amp, and this can be eliminated, but at what cost? It might be necessary to reduce the volume (and SPL) to a level that is much lower than you are used to, to eliminate a problem that you were unaware existed.

Different amplifiers react in different ways to these momentary overloads, where their overall performance is otherwise almost identical. I have tested IC power amps, and was dismayed by the overload recovery waveform. My faithful old 60W design measures about the same as the IC in some areas, a little better in some, a little worse in others (as one would expect).

Were these two amps compared in a double blind test (avoiding clipping), it is probable that no-one would be able to tell the difference. Advance the level so that transients started clipping, and a fence post would be able to hear the difference between them. What terms would describe the sound? I have no idea. The sound might be "smeared" due to the loss of detail during the recovery time of the IC amp. Imaging might suffer as well, since much of the signal that provides directional cues would be lost for periods of time.

http://sound.westhost.com/amp-sound.htm

 

[kmanian 5,000+ posts]

Obviously there is a crystal ball out there that allows designers to know what something will sound like without measurable parameters to define it all. All amp designs are merely random stabs in the dark with no mind paid to science or physics. It's just a magic box that you plug a source into and speakers into. No one knows how they work and only sorcerers can make them...
That is what arguing that differences that can't be measured can be heard and that what we are measuring is not what we're hearing boils down to. If the above seems ludicrous to you, you are beginning to understand how silly your argument sounds to people who understand the reality of this stuff.

Yes, you can hear the difference between two amps; however in every instance where a difference is heard that difference can be quantified in a significant measurable difference in THD, noise, frequency response or power. If two amps measure the same, they will sound the same.

I htink the point that we are making is that you are totally correct with the science, however with the parameters listed to describe the amplifiers specs. often they are very similar if not the same, however the end result is different, the average consumer or for that matter the hardcore stereo head usually does not have the equipment to measure the amps true specs. So we therefore have to either rely on the stated specs or rely on our ear. So with that being said, on the street there is most definately a difference between similar stated spec amps. concluding that we have to use our ears to make the judgement. Simply because of the lack of actual specs of the said amplifiers.

I hope I have said that correctly:crap: