Where to buy RAINBOW AMPS?

[helotaxi 5,000+ posts]

^^^There are 4 and only 4 specs that determine how an amp will sound below clipping.

1)Distortion: If you can't hear it its low enough. If the distortion measurements are the BAL there is no difference from this spec.

2)S/N: If it's inaudible then nothing here as well.

3)Frequency response: If an amp sounds "warm" it has an issue in this spec. An amp should not "sound" anything. It's job is to increase the voltage and current of a signal without altering it. If it is rolling off or has non linearities within the frequency range it is being used in, then it isn't a good amp.

4)Power: Power makes the world go 'round. Psychoacoustics tell us that louder sounds better. Extra power also allows the system to be more dynamic. Even if you only ever use around 50w having 200 on tap is only going to help. Effortless dynamics are created by having headroom.

If those 4 specs are inaudibly different, there is not a person alive who can distinguish the difference between two amps. For any amp worth owning (and I dont hardly limit this to "high-end" brands, I use old Orion and Phoenix Gold, hardly "high-end") the only spec that needs to be considered is #4 where more or the money is better. Beyond that you're paying for intangibles: reputation, the boost to your ego, reliability (which is almost a wash with solid state electronics above budget grade anyway), and customer service (which with reliable electronics isn't often needed). Spend you money however you want, but if you think spending a ton on amps is going to give you verifiably better sound, think again.

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

Don't we all know that specs can not tell us the true story of how one amp will preform vs. another.

Wrong.

What mystical powers or abilities do you think an amplifier possesses which can't be measured and aren't captured in the above stated specs ?

The warmth, image ...

Are all captured in the specs of frequency response and distortion.

I do question those who have opinions here, have you had the oppertunity to listen to the rainbow amps?

Don't need to listen, just need to know the specs.

If not, how can it be determined that it is "not worth the upgrade,"

By examining those difference, all of which ARE measureable, which contribute to the "sound characteristics" of an amplifier.

Other than that, x2 to everything Helotaxi said.

 

[kmanian 5,000+ posts]

Power output 65 watts RMS x 4 (4 W load),

250 watts x 4 max output,

500 watts x 2 max (bridged mode) ·

Frequency response: 10 to 30,000 Hz ·

Signal to Noise ratio: > 90 dB · THD:

4 Channel: 50W at 4 ohms or

100W at 2 ohms x 4;

3 Channel: 50W x 2 , 200W x 1

at 4 ohms; 2 Channel: 200W x

2 at 4 ohms

20Hz to

20kHz

0.005% 10dB 20Hz to 20kHz, +0 / -0.25dB;

10Hz t0 100kHz, +0 / -3.0dB

0.5V to 8V 105dB (1.5V) 12.0V Idle: 2.5A Rated

power 40A (4

ohms)

Well, I am assuming that by both of your definitions of what matters in an amp, one would conclude that these two amps are pretty close in the way they will make a given set of speakers sound, correct?

THD is below what is considered audioble, rms is compareable, S/N basically a wash, and frequency Res. is to the threshold of the human ear on both.

would you agree?

 

[kmanian 5,000+ posts]

Feel free to answer the question.

 

[kmanian 5,000+ posts]

well seeing that both are signed in now and not replying, I will state the fact that the two amps these specs are for are:

Pyramid PB448X Super Blue 4x65W Amplifier

and

McIntosh MCC204

you make the call.

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

well seeing that both are signed in now and not replying,

Just because our little guy is green doesn't mean we are sitting in front of the computer //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

I will state the fact that the two amps these specs are for are
Pyramid PB448X Super Blue 4x65W Amplifier

and

McIntosh MCC204

you make the call.

First you have to keep in mind the Pyramid is likely overrated and the McIntosh slightly underrated....so chances are good the McIntosh is capable of more power.

But yes, assuming they are both capable of inaudibly different power output (ie limit the power output of the McIntosh), distortion is below audibility, inaudible differences in frequency response and no audible noise from either amp........they would be audibly indistinguishable.

There is NO reason they would sound different.

Sure, there issues such as reliability to consider that would not necessarily make the Pyramid an attractive candidate for purchase. But that does not mean they would sound different //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

 

[kmanian 5,000+ posts]

Squeak, I respectfully disagree.

For the sake of debate, how do you explain how nice tube amps sound?

 

[kmanian 5,000+ posts]

Just because our little guy is green doesn't mean we are sitting in front of the computer //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

True true. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

For the sake of debate, how do you explain how nice tube amps sound?

That's pretty simple, really.

Damping factor generally isn't an issue for solid state amplifiers as they have high enough DF to not audibly affect frequency response, but the same isn't true of tube amps. Tube amps generally have a very high output impedance (compared to SS), high enough that it WILL affect the frequency response of the amplifier.

Some people also attribute it to some tube amps having higher (i.e. audible) levels of even-order distortion than SS which obviously will again alter the "sound" of the amplifier. Though others claim that most tube amplifiers are still capable of operating at levels of inaudible distortion. It really just depends on the amplifier as the cause could be one or both. But the reality still exists that the difference in sound are completely characterized by the measurements of power, frequency response, distortion and noise. There is NOTHING else going on inside an amplifier that alters the sound that can't be explained by those 4 measurements.

Richard Clark would actually allow someone to participate in his challenge comparing a solid state amplifier to a tube amplifier. He'd simply add a resistor to the output of the solid state amp to raise it's output impedance (and hence decrease the damping factor).

If you can hear a difference in two amps, it WILL be captured in the measurements of power, noise, frequency response or distortion.

 

[kmanian 5,000+ posts]

You are one learned dude, and the theory is as you state I am sure, I know through my 22+ years that amps with similar specs can have very different sounds through the same drivers.

But 10 tons of respect to you.

 

[helotaxi 5,000+ posts]

You are one learned dude, and the theory is as you state I am sure, I know through my 22+ years that amps with similar specs can have very different sounds through the same drivers.

Big difference between "similar specs" and audibly indistinguishable. Also a big difference between rated specs and measured specs. If you can hear a difference between two amps there is going to be a measurable difference in one of the specs I listed previously, guaranteed. As squeak mentioned, tube amps are a bit of a different story but it is rather simple to make a solid state amp sound just the same as a tube amp when the 4 specs are the same.

 

[krisfnbz 10+ year member]

wow this thread has been very informative, thank you all! keep arguing!!! lol

 

[krisfnbz 10+ year member]

So guys Im going to go ahead and keep the kicker amp as I dont feel now that I will gain my moneys worth by getting the rainbow as of this point. Maybe when I upgrade to a higher series rainbow components in a year or 2 I will think about upgrading. I have never had a problem with the kicker and it sounds great to me.

Heres my question here are the specs on the amp kx650.4:

4 x 70W @ 4 ohms (12.5V - 0.085% THD)

4 x 135W @ 2 ohms (12.5V - 0.5% THD)

2 x 250W @ 4 ohms bridge (12.5V - 0.5% THD)

4 x 120W @ 4 ohms (14.4V -

4 x 170W @ 2 ohms (14.4V -

2 x 325W @ 4 ohms bridge (14.4V -

Its saying it would do 2x325 Bridged @ 4 ohms. Right now im only using 2 of the channels @ 4 ohms for as the specs say 120 a channel @ 4 ohms...and the other 2 channels are not being used. I have the rainbow SLX265's upgraded versions....I have them high passed on the HU/ and AMP at I believe 125 and have the gains set mathmatically with a meter to get the correct voltage...do you guys know if these speakers can take more power???? They say on rainbows website 150 per channel! I have them set to get 120w per channel now, and thats when the H/U is at volume 50. when I am listening to music very loud its between 40-45 anything above 45 you can hear distortion. So its set at volume 50 with 120 watts... I dont see how these speakers can take 150.

 

[helotaxi 5,000+ posts]

Is it the speakers distorting or the HU? You can turn down the gain and use the extra power potential of the amp as headroom. Crossover settings have a ton to do with midrange and tweeter power handling. Higher freq, higher power handling.

 

[kmanian 5,000+ posts]

I guess what I am getting at is that the common man does not have the equipment to measure the true specs of an amp. now forget Pyrimid, given that there are two reputable companies, with two amps that have the same basics specs, the two amps can have different audiable sounds that the "specs" don't show.

I reolize the theory and in the lab it all works, but in the real world, not so much.

my opinion, keeping in mind opinions are like a&% holes and everyone has one.