Sundown Zv.4, DC XL, AQ/SQ HDC4.0, TC5200 comparison|3.7cubes, PR tuned to 25-28hz

Didn't need to quote the entire statement as you obviously knew what I meant. There is more to a sub then piston diameter and xmax....
And music played/power level can also play into port area requirements. Especially with the current trend of playing down to around 20Hz and throwing 2-3x RMS at a sub.
Yes, you did need to quote the entire sentence in order to convey the context. I wasn't talking about all the parameters of a sub. I was talking about port area. And like I said, if piston area and xmax are similar, then port area requirements will also be similar... regardless of other parameters and without respect to the style of music one listens to. And while it is true that one can use less port area than required if the sub will be underpowered... that is not a necessity and it's also not wise. Proper port area on a low powered system will not cause tuning or performance problems but less port area than required on high power will.

So I'm wondering, what sort of variations in port area would you say are power & program dependant and also necessary?

 
I hate PR's, they feel restrictive with most subs used today. I can imagine PR's almost blowing out of a box with a zv.4 and all it's travel.
I tend to agree with you. I remember back in the late 90's when Earthquake was hawking their SLAPS PR along with the Magma subs. I used one with a 12" Magma on about 2kW and it did okay but frankly, the sub did much, much better in a ported box.

 
Hmm thanks, it seems its difficult to build a box with flat response for 3 of these subs. Im trying very hard to make the 5200 work in 4 cubes or less and it seems impossible.. actually it seems impossible to make it have a relatively good response at all. Cannot get this sub above 0db no matter what I do, unless it takes a 10db dip right after. (new to the program)
The area I have to work with is 39x16x14.5.. that is the max area I have to use, 4.1cubes. I am trying to figure out what driver is best for my situation. Meanwhile trying to make the TC work because that's the sub I would like to run. If you don't mind can you give me some assistance in trying to make the right box for the TC?.. here is the archive webpage. TC 5200

As TC recommends, I made a 3.7 cube box with two of their 15" PRs. The results were exactly the same as with one PSI PR, crap. Does this sub only work well in sealed?
Just so you don't think I've forgotten about you... I can't access the TS numbers for this sub. Web Archive is down for maintenance, so if you don't mind dropping TS numbers in this thread or in my PM, I'll model a few boxes for it.

 
Just so you don't think I've forgotten about you... I can't access the TS numbers for this sub. Web Archive is down for maintenance, so if you don't mind dropping TS numbers in this thread or in my PM, I'll model a few boxes for it.
qts: .159

qes: .164

qms: 5.1

vas: 109L

fs: 22hz

re:4.52ohms

BL: 44.38 t/m

xmax: 30mm

I have been messing with ported boxes, trying to stay about the same ratio port to box volume as TC recommends and I have been able to get a somewhat flatter response. I can never get a flat response and above 0db though, its always very peaky if I get it above 0db.

 
Wow.... I'm having the same results. I question the accuracy of those TS numbers. I understand they're from the manufacturer but they're notorious for inflating things like BL to make their subs look better.

I wonder if anyone has ever run that sub on a DATS or some other TS device?

 
I guess I'll throw my .10c in here, since I have plenty of experience with PR modeling and using them in a car as well. PR's can work very well in a car. While subwoofers have gotten pretty beastly in the last few years, so have passive radiators. Most good PR's have 30-40mm of xmax and you generally have 2x as much cone area in passives as you do speaker. Passives don't have the limitation of airspeed through the port and the boxes are MUCH smaller. The crazy excursion on these woofers with the high Bl means they can produce a lot of bass in small ported box, but need a BIG port do it. If he wants to do 25hz tuning, he can use passives and make a 3-4cubic foot box, or he can use a correctly sized port and end up with a 6 cubic foot box, with 2 feet being eaten up by the wide and very long port. That's the huge advantage of a passive, that and adjustable tuning. Nobody get's car boxes spot on first try, when adjusting tuning takes a few minutes (rear loaded passives or only a few seconds (front loaded passives) that's pretty sweet. I can tune my box between anywhere between 45hz and 15hz in a matter of seconds.

Now to address that 5200. Those T/S specs ARE correct, your looking at quite possibly the most overmotored sub in history. While it's EBP suggests a ported alignment, in this case, the specs are so far from most other woofers, it's misleading. The only way to NOT make a fart cannon box out of this thing is to use a sealed enclosure. Interestingly, ANY sealed enclosure. You can literally put this thing in a box just big enough to fit the magnet structure and not really effect it's low end output much. Go model it in a 6 cube sealed vs a 2cube sealed to see what I mean, it's just sooo low Q that it really doesn't matter, the motor force makes up the difference. Nothing ported you can build will not be peaky for this thing in a car, that's not what it was made for, in a car it's good for SPL and in a home, it can give you very low bass in a super small box with some EQ work applied.

Beyond all that, ported and PR alignments are the same thing, they are both using resonators, the only difference one uses air and one uses a speaker cone. The suspension acts as another order of a HPF, so it' rolls off just a hair faster (5th order vs 4th order) below tuning, but beyond that, they are the same. Unless of course your port isn't adequately sized, in which case the PR will outperform a port at higher levels. Out of what you've posted graphs for, I liked the the white graph on the first page, that was pretty flat response overall. I believe that's the SSA Zcon? I actually had my eye on the ssa dcon for PR use due to it's T/S. What you generally want to look for for a "good" candidate for PR boxes is something that will model well in a small ported enclosure, slowly falling response for flat in car response, that needs to be tuned very low to do that.. With a standard port, that's a PITA type of box as the port ends up eating up airspace, making your small box not so small. DCON fits the bill, apparently so does the XCON, which is good as their other lines didn't when I messed with it, never even bothered with the Zcon.

 
I guess I'll throw my .10c in here, since I have plenty of experience with PR modeling and using them in a car as well. PR's can work very well in a car. While subwoofers have gotten pretty beastly in the last few years, so have passive radiators. Most good PR's have 30-40mm of xmax and you generally have 2x as much cone area in passives as you do speaker. Passives don't have the limitation of airspeed through the port and the boxes are MUCH smaller. The crazy excursion on these woofers with the high Bl means they can produce a lot of bass in small ported box, but need a BIG port do it. If he wants to do 25hz tuning, he can use passives and make a 3-4cubic foot box, or he can use a correctly sized port and end up with a 6 cubic foot box, with 2 feet being eaten up by the wide and very long port. That's the huge advantage of a passive, that and adjustable tuning. Nobody get's car boxes spot on first try, when adjusting tuning takes a few minutes (rear loaded passives or only a few seconds (front loaded passives) that's pretty sweet. I can tune my box between anywhere between 45hz and 15hz in a matter of seconds.
Now to address that 5200. Those T/S specs ARE correct, your looking at quite possibly the most overmotored sub in history. While it's EBP suggests a ported alignment, in this case, the specs are so far from most other woofers, it's misleading. The only way to NOT make a fart cannon box out of this thing is to use a sealed enclosure. Interestingly, ANY sealed enclosure. You can literally put this thing in a box just big enough to fit the magnet structure and not really effect it's low end output much. Go model it in a 6 cube sealed vs a 2cube sealed to see what I mean, it's just sooo low Q that it really doesn't matter, the motor force makes up the difference. Nothing ported you can build will not be peaky for this thing in a car, that's not what it was made for, in a car it's good for SPL and in a home, it can give you very low bass in a super small box with some EQ work applied.

Beyond all that, ported and PR alignments are the same thing, they are both using resonators, the only difference one uses air and one uses a speaker cone. The suspension acts as another order of a HPF, so it' rolls off just a hair faster (5th order vs 4th order) below tuning, but beyond that, they are the same. Unless of course your port isn't adequately sized, in which case the PR will outperform a port at higher levels. Out of what you've posted graphs for, I liked the the white graph on the first page, that was pretty flat response overall. I believe that's the SSA Zcon? I actually had my eye on the ssa dcon for PR use due to it's T/S. What you generally want to look for for a "good" candidate for PR boxes is something that will model well in a small ported enclosure, slowly falling response for flat in car response, that needs to be tuned very low to do that.. With a standard port, that's a PITA type of box as the port ends up eating up airspace, making your small box not so small. DCON fits the bill, apparently so does the XCON, which is good as their other lines didn't when I messed with it, never even bothered with the Zcon.
That's interesting. I modeled it in a .2 cube box and a 6 cube box. The .2 cubes is WinISDs recommended .7 box and it starts dropping at 193 Hz and goes -3dB at 97 Hz. At 4 cubes it's already a full dB down at 250 Hz and F3 is 131 Hz. I wonder if the fact that I don't have Le and Sensitivity is affecting the modeling calculations?

 
Absolutely. That's a 4inch coil with no shorting rings, inductance does play a big role with this speaker up top. You had to get the 5400 to get the a big coil with a a copper filled motor. Good luck making a .2 cube box lol. By the time you get something reasonable around the motor structure your at the point of diminishing returns in regards to box space. 2 cubes vs 6 cubes and you'll see very little difference in low end output at 25hz, which is unusual for a 15. A box small enough to bring the Q up to a normal number is too small to realistically build. They are a neat woofer for sure, sealed in a car you can literally just pack them into a box and more or less get the same output as you would if you tripled your box size, and they have the xmax to get low. Ported, they are a little too beastly to be anything but an SPL driver, but their cones and softparts weren't great for that application stock, although the motor is still probably king of the hill in SPL if you rebuild it. PSI made some nice ones from what I've heard. They did the same for the 5400, but that's a waste of a world class driver //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/frown.gif.a3531fa0534503350665a1e957861287.gif (NO LMS COIL!)

 
I guess I'll throw my .10c in here, since I have plenty of experience with PR modeling and using them in a car as well. PR's can work very well in a car. While subwoofers have gotten pretty beastly in the last few years, so have passive radiators. Most good PR's have 30-40mm of xmax and you generally have 2x as much cone area in passives as you do speaker. Passives don't have the limitation of airspeed through the port and the boxes are MUCH smaller. The crazy excursion on these woofers with the high Bl means they can produce a lot of bass in small ported box, but need a BIG port do it. If he wants to do 25hz tuning, he can use passives and make a 3-4cubic foot box, or he can use a correctly sized port and end up with a 6 cubic foot box, with 2 feet being eaten up by the wide and very long port. That's the huge advantage of a passive, that and adjustable tuning. Nobody get's car boxes spot on first try, when adjusting tuning takes a few minutes (rear loaded passives or only a few seconds (front loaded passives) that's pretty sweet. I can tune my box between anywhere between 45hz and 15hz in a matter of seconds.
Now to address that 5200. Those T/S specs ARE correct, your looking at quite possibly the most overmotored sub in history. While it's EBP suggests a ported alignment, in this case, the specs are so far from most other woofers, it's misleading. The only way to NOT make a fart cannon box out of this thing is to use a sealed enclosure. Interestingly, ANY sealed enclosure. You can literally put this thing in a box just big enough to fit the magnet structure and not really effect it's low end output much. Go model it in a 6 cube sealed vs a 2cube sealed to see what I mean, it's just sooo low Q that it really doesn't matter, the motor force makes up the difference. Nothing ported you can build will not be peaky for this thing in a car, that's not what it was made for, in a car it's good for SPL and in a home, it can give you very low bass in a super small box with some EQ work applied.

Beyond all that, ported and PR alignments are the same thing, they are both using resonators, the only difference one uses air and one uses a speaker cone. The suspension acts as another order of a HPF, so it' rolls off just a hair faster (5th order vs 4th order) below tuning, but beyond that, they are the same. Unless of course your port isn't adequately sized, in which case the PR will outperform a port at higher levels. Out of what you've posted graphs for, I liked the the white graph on the first page, that was pretty flat response overall. I believe that's the SSA Zcon? I actually had my eye on the ssa dcon for PR use due to it's T/S. What you generally want to look for for a "good" candidate for PR boxes is something that will model well in a small ported enclosure, slowly falling response for flat in car response, that needs to be tuned very low to do that.. With a standard port, that's a PITA type of box as the port ends up eating up airspace, making your small box not so small. DCON fits the bill, apparently so does the XCON, which is good as their other lines didn't when I messed with it, never even bothered with the Zcon.
Actually the sub that was represented by the white line was the DC xl. The zcon was the grey line and had the same response as the 5200 but at a lower DB.

How are DCs motors, are they powerful? I want to have the option of reconing in the future, so I want the motor to be strong.

Btw thanks for the input, you seem very knowledgeable. Is there a sub you would recommend for my situation?.. 4cubes max to work with, 15" sub, mmats 3500.05... can run ported or PR.. would prefer not to go sealed because I want it to romp... I haven't heard a sealed setup that was anything compared to ported.. then again the TC is pretty unique lol

 
qts: .159qes: .164

qms: 5.1

vas: 109L

fs: 22hz

re:4.52ohms

BL: 44.38 t/m

xmax: 30mm

I have been messing with ported boxes, trying to stay about the same ratio port to box volume as TC recommends and I have been able to get a somewhat flatter response. I can never get a flat response and above 0db though, its always very peaky if I get it above 0db.
There's something funky with those.

Qts and qms are too low for that Fs to be that low I feel. Vas seems reasonable to me. Bl seems too high, but I don't know the woofer at all besides what you showed.

 
Like too low I mean too low maybe to work together properly? Maybe a bad combo of parts?
Indeed. The suspensions on these were VERY soft for as much motor as they had. That's always been a weakness of TC sounds drivers when you push them. They have great T/S to model well and sound very nicely at low volumes as well as the capability for high output, however if your not careful they will break on you as the T/S make them far from idiot proof. Even the LMS ultras had that issue, the xmax was over 40mm, but you could easily crash the coil into the backplate without much isssue

 
Indeed. The suspensions on these were VERY soft for as much motor as they had. That's always been a weakness of TC sounds drivers when you push them. They have great T/S to model well and sound very nicely at low volumes as well as the capability for high output, however if your not careful they will break on you as the T/S make them far from idiot proof. Even the LMS ultras had that issue, the xmax was over 40mm, but you could easily crash the coil into the backplate without much isssue
Hey if you still need help with that box I'm back up feeling better.

I like that theory of the woofer, big motor, softer suspension, but not so much where it becomes a problem like it seems like it has with some of their drivers.

 
Indeed. The suspensions on these were VERY soft for as much motor as they had. That's always been a weakness of TC sounds drivers when you push them. They have great T/S to model well and sound very nicely at low volumes as well as the capability for high output, however if your not careful they will break on you as the T/S make them far from idiot proof. Even the LMS ultras had that issue, the xmax was over 40mm, but you could easily crash the coil into the backplate without much isssue
Is there a sub that you think suits my situation better?... 4 cubes max, 15" sub, ported or PR, ran off of an mmats 3500.05, powerful motor.

The reason I want a powerful motor is because I would like to have it reconed by SPL or PSI at some point. That's why I was really leaning towards the TC.

Ive never heard a sealed setup that impressed me, but maybe the tc is different?.. considering just running it sealed until I get the new vehicle.

 
Activity
No one is currently typing a reply...
Old Thread: Please note, there have been no replies in this thread for over 3 years!
Content in this thread may no longer be relevant.
Perhaps it would be better to start a new thread instead.

About this thread

Bwap

CarAudio.com Elite
Thread starter
Bwap
Joined
Location
NY
Start date
Participants
Who Replied
Replies
52
Views
7,891
Last reply date
Last reply from
mlstrass
IMG_20260516_193114554_HDR.jpg

sherbanater

    May 16, 2026
  • 0
  • 0
IMG_20260516_192955471_HDR.jpg

sherbanater

    May 16, 2026
  • 0
  • 0

New threads

Top