Subwoofer Specifications

[Justintoxicated 10+ year member]

When Comparing subs from specifications (Buying Def) I'd like to get a better understanding of what they mean.

For example, If one sub has more excursion than another (of the same size) does this mean it will typicaly get louder in the proper sealed enclosure?

For example if a 10" W3 has 14.7 mm of excusrion, an Adire koda has 18.5mm, DLS Iridium has 14mm of excursion and W6 has 15.2mm

Does this mean tthe Koda will be louder than a W6, and the DLS Iridium will produce the least volume in a sealed enclosure of the appropriate size?

Next, efficiency

suppose a W6V2 has 83.7 dB sensitivity (it does),and a DLS Iridium has 85.7 dB (1W/1m), the DLS says it is more efficient.

The W6 handles less power RMS(400watts) han the DLS (500 watts).

So now I'm confused, how can the Iridium Handle more power and be more efficient, yet have less excursion?

Sorry if this is a dumb question.

Click to read more...

 

[Justintoxicated 10+ year member]

Xmax is the lesser of Xsus and Xmag.Xmag is the point at which BL drops to 70% of peak value

Xsus is the point at which Kms rises to 4x the minimum value

Basically, it's the maximum linear excursion.

Efficiency (1W @ 1m) = 112 + 10*Log(9.64*10^-10*Fs^3*Vas/Qes)

Power handling can vary depending on how they rated it. Some companies rate their drivers using thermal power handling. Some companies rate their drivers using recommended input power. Some companies use other methods.

Power handling, Efficiency, and Xmax are all completely independent of one another ...

Man your speaking greek to me!

So if the X-max is low that means the sub is going to have less SQ and more distortion than a sub of equal size at the same excursion? So the DLS Iridum would sound the worst of all the woofers I listed at high volumes?

What does BL REALLY mean in english and wtf is Kms?

So the DLS Iridium subwoofers has some really crap specs vs the koda or JLW6V2?? Funny thing is everyone says how much better it sounds than the JL woofers, but it has less X-max so how can that be? Hell the Koda has a huge X-max???I don't understand, please help.

 

[DFW40 10+ year member]

Xmax is a good thing and so if efficiency for the most part. The subs you are comparing have similar specs so you would not notice a huge difference. But take a 12w3 with 15MM xmax vs. 12w7 with 29MM and there will be a huge difference. That W7 will be moving about twice as much air as the 12 W3. However the W7 needs twice the power to achieve this Xmax. This is why these supersubs are great, you can have a single sub setup that will outdue many multi sub setups....takes up much less space but they require more power better boxes etc. These are very general comments but I bet they make more sense. Stick with a good brand like the JL's, Adires, RE's, Image Dynamics etc and you will be fine.

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

So if the X-max is low that means the sub is going to have less SQ and more distortion than a sub of equal size at the same excursion?

Not necessarily. It just means that it can't move as far before it starts to become non-linear (i.e. less linear output). Some of the most highly regarded sound quality subwoofers have the lowest Xmax (Phase Evolution (Linear) Aliante for example has an Xmax of 5mm or so, yet is loved by most "audiophiles").

That said, some can argue that a higher Xmax could be better for sound quality since the speaker is using less of it's available linear range for a given output level compared to a lower Xmax sub.

But, no....Xmax tells you nothing about sound quality. Only output.

So the DLS Iridum would sound the worst of all the woofers I listed at high volumes?

Depends on your definition of "high volumes". I can tell you that an experience over this weekend has given me a new perspective on this term. What one considers to be "high volume", another person may not.

But, in a sealed box, the sub with the highest Vd [displacement or (Sd * Xmax)] has the potential to have the most output while still remaining linear. Now, you need to realize that I bolded the term potential for a reason.....efficiency, power, box size, etc are going to play a role in how much of that excursion is actually utilized.

What does BL REALLY mean in english and wtf is Kms?

B = magentic flux density in the gap

L = length of wire in the gap

B*L (BL) = strength of the motor

BL curve comes in to play here. BL curve gives a graphical representation of the applicable motor force for over the range of excursion. The flatter the BL curve the better. BL nonlinearities (uneven or very parabolic curve) is a large factor in driver distortion & nonlinearities, and as excursion increases it can cause Qes to rise, decreasing low frequency extension and causing a more uneven frequency response. However, some people prefer that "distortion" in their music. Some people don't like the sound of BL optimized subwoofers (like most XBL^2 drivers) because it lacks that distortion they are used to. This emphasizes the difference between "true" sonic accuracy and personal preference in sound. Go with what sounds good to your ear.

But BL as a number alone (in the T/S params) doesn't mean jack shit to the consumer.

Kms is the curve for the suspension compliance over the given excursion range. Basically same thing as the BL curve; how linear is the suspension's compliance over the excursion range.

So the DLS Iridium subwoofers has some really crap specs vs the koda or JLW6V2??

Too lazy to look right now. Give me a little bit and I may.

Just remember that the T/S specs alone don't always give the full story //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

Funny thing is everyone says how much better it sounds than the JL woofers, but it has less X-max so how can that be?

Because Xmax in and of itself is not a determinate of sound quality.

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

Xmax is a good thing and so if efficiency for the most part.

Hoffman's Iron Law....you can only have two of the following three:

1) High efficiency

2) Small box

3) Good low frequency extension

Higher efficiency isn't always a good thing when dealing with the small confines of a vehicle //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif Means you gotta give up one of the other two.

But........true efficiency is going to be relative to box size.

 

[Justintoxicated 10+ year member]

squeak, Jmac, thanks for all that info.

I wanted to know cause I'm Strongly considering the DLS Iridium woofers. I have heard some amazing things about them and they will fit fairly easy in my truck 5.25 inch mounting depth. (Top of the line DLS woofer actualy fits)

My other choice is Kodas, or ARC Audio woofers. The ARC's have a larger mounting depth, so I would worry about hte Voice Coil venting with less than 1/2 inch between magnet and box.

The DLS Iridium woofers are extreamly expensive in comparison to Kodas or ARC's, but I will be getting a good deal on an A3/A6 amp and 2 10" woofers that is why I am so tempted.

I can not listen to the Kodas or DLS, so I just have to take peoples words they they are both excelent drivers. I have heard Adire woofers lack on the higher frequencies but have excelent low end extention and great SQ. I have heard that the DLS iridiums handle everything well, but I'm guessing that they do not get as loud, and require more power to do so (Even though they have higher efficiency than some other woofers I listed)

I still do not understand how they can be considered More Efficient than another drivers which can reach greater X-max off less power. That would be less efficient?

I'd appreciate any advice you can give me on the DLS Iridium woofers. I know their ultimates won the wold championship last year, and the Iridims are supposed to be better.

Going with an ALL DLS setup is tempting and I think I want to try a class A/B amp instead of my hifonics. I remember I had a generic A/B before and it sounded more clear than the hifonics (first thing I noticed when I got the Hifonics amp), but the hifonics got louder (due to the other amp being a generic POS) so it was a trade off. I do feel there is a difference in A/B vs Class D clarity.

 

[Justintoxicated 10+ year member]

So then, in a sealed enclosure the Kodas will for sure be louder than the DLS, but they might not sound as clean? But I'm pretty much gauranted that teh DLS is not going to be nearly as loud then right? Now I read an atricle that said 14mm on the DLS was a VERY conservative rating. What does that mean?

If I get the Kodas I could stick with my class D amp, or should I still look into a new A/B amp?

I'm never going to be able to make up my mind am I this sucks!

Hell I could almost fit a SS sub in there, but I heard they were not very loud and they have an X-max of 20mm or so!

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

So then, in a sealed enclosure the Kodas will for sure be louder than the DLS, but they might not sound as clean?

They have the potential to have more output (box, power, etc are going to affect actual output). Now, you also need to keep in mind the realm of audibility. To have a 3db increase in output, you need to double the amount of air being moved. I haven't looked up specs, but IIRC the Koda's have an Xmax of around 18.5mm and the DLS has around 14mm, correct? If so, 4mm difference in excursion isn't going to have a dramatic affect on output difference.....infact you might not even be able to hear the difference.

And as for the Koda's not sounding as clean......I guess I'm not sure where you got that from....LOL. I think the simple statement here would be that both have the ability to sound very very good, and have very close to the same audible output.

But I'm pretty much gauranted that teh DLS is not going to be nearly as loud then right?

See above.

Now I read an atricle that said 14mm on the DLS was a VERY conservative rating. What does that mean?

Well, it would mean that the DLS is capable of moving further than 14mm linearly.

If I get the Kodas I could stick with my class D amp, or should I still look into a new A/B amp?

Up to you and your wallet. I'm not a Hifonics fan personally.....I'd probably ditch that as soon as possible //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/tongue.gif.6130eb82179565f6db8d26d6001dcd24.gif

I'm never going to be able to make up my mind am I this sucks!

Yes, yes it does.

Hell I could almost fit a SS sub in there, but I heard they were not very loud and they have an X-max of 20mm or so!

Again, "loud" is a relative term. If the person is using a 150db system as their reference of what "loud" is...then yeah, the SS's aren't loud //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

However, the SS subs have the ability to have as much output as (and possibly more than) the other two options you are debating between.

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

dB = +6.0206 dB

Blah.....that's what I meant //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/moon.gif.9d317aec3339ffe7fde0638df52c628a.gif

Moral of the story; differences will likely be inaudible. Best case scenario is a very, very small difference in audible output.

 

[Justintoxicated 10+ year member]

Well I have to wonder why the MSRP on a 15" Kodas is $329 US $ and the msrp on the DLS Iridium is much more (760 euros for the 15")...Now that is a noticable difference although I will be getting 2 10" not 15's. Especialy since I will be getting 2 woofers. Hell I could buy 3 Kodas for less than 1 DLS at MSRP

The Iridium woofer also uses a 3 inch voice coil vs the Kodas 2"...Interesting again.

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/frown.gif.a3531fa0534503350665a1e957861287.gif Buying def sucks, I know the Kodas will sound good and get loud, But I am guessing the DLS Iridium woofers will sound better with slightly less output. More power to achieve less excursion but have a real beefy voice coil and were designed purley for SQ.

Now the real kicker is I can get the kodas for $200 each, or the Iridiums for around $300 each. So it is very hard to determin which will give me better sound for the money...But the deal on the DLS is obviously more savings. Although I could care less about price if the cheaper one sounds better.

*Bangs head on desk*

Oh yea, not a huge hifonics fan either, however when I bought this one about 5-6 years ago my options were limited (its a Z600 I dunno if they made them better back then but it says designed and engineered in the U.S.A on it), the JL amps were not listed online back then and they were selling for about $800+ for the 500/1. I dunno never had a problem with this amp, other than I did notice quite a difference in sound switching from an A/B amp to Class D, the generic "Die Hard" amp I was using sounded more clear and crip being class A/B I guess, even with my subs in a bandpass box, I didn't know much back then But I just figured it was because I was giving it more power so it sounded more boomy. Never had a problem with this amp it has run perfect for a very long time, maybe they just don't makem like they used to?

 

[Steven Kephart 10+ year member]

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/frown.gif.a3531fa0534503350665a1e957861287.gif Buying def sucks, I know the Kodas will sound good and get loud, But I am guessing the DLS Iridium woofers will sound better with slightly less output. More power to achieve less excursion but have a real beefy voice coil and were designed purley for SQ.

Keep in mind that the Koda uses our XBL^2 motor which means it will have less distortion than standard overhung motors. The Koda subs were designed purely for SQ as well, and do it better than most other "SQ" subs IMO. Just because something is more expensive, doesn't necessarily mean it is better. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

Steven Kephart

Adire Audio

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

Likewise, there are people who prefer the sound of standard topologies over BL-optimized subs.

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

Just something to think about.

And I'm not downplaying the Koda, or XBL^2. 'Tis a great sub and a great technology. Just that everyone has different musical preferences.

If low distortion was the only criteria for musical enjoyment.....poor Jack wouldn't enjoy his tubes so much....... //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/tongue.gif.6130eb82179565f6db8d26d6001dcd24.gif

 

[Justintoxicated 10+ year member]

Ok, well since I changed from class A/B to Class D so long ago, how much SQ shift would I see going back to a class A/B amp? Both Kodas and DLS are going to cost me relatively the same price if I include the amplifier since I get an exra $100 off the amp for sticking with the DLS. Unless of course I keep my old Hifonics Zeus Class D then the Kodas are way cheaper.

If this is a viable option, I do need money for other things right now other than car audio...Unfortunately lol. But if the DLS deal really is as good as I'm thinking then how can I possibly pass that up for a lesser deal on kodas (still good but not quite as good)

I have no way to know what the sound of the Kodas vs the Iridium Woofers would be. But I do know I like the DLS Components better than Adire's.

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

Ok, well since I changed from class A/B to Class D so long ago, how much SQ shift would I see going back to a class A/B amp?

In all honesty; if they are both quality amps, you shouldn't hear any difference. And if you do hear any differences, those difference can not be attributed to the "type" of amplifier used. If you heard a difference between amps, then it was either due to power, settings, or to something directly related to one of the amps in particular and not to the amp's class as a whole.

 

[JimJ 5,000+ posts]

We're going to have to set you up with an ABX test for Class A vs. Class D //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif