SPL upgrade time


OptimaMURPH

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So I drive a small Saturn 3 door coupe. Looking to step into the spl world out of SQ. I am currently running two 12 inch LXR subs from the 80s on a precision power Sedona APA200 and Rockford punch door speakers. It just isn’t loud enough for me anymore. I’m looking to do a not crazy 10,000 dollar spl build. A budget build. Suggestions? Can’t fit anything bigger than a 12 in the trunk but m my backseats do fold down.
 

hispls

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you'll need one badass neo/team sub
I don't think any of those "team" subs are designed for efficiency so any of those would be a poor choice and neodymium is about the last practical thing you could spend money on for (possible) gains, particularly since it's likely OP isn't really trying to play fartbox but just wants a bit louder for music.
 

marc2112

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I don't think any of those "team" subs are designed for efficiency so any of those would be a poor choice and neodymium is about the last practical thing you could spend money on for (possible) gains, particularly since it's likely OP isn't really trying to play fartbox but just wants a bit louder for music.
Damn!! The jig is up... I know jack shit about spl. 🤣
 

Buck

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I don't think any of those "team" subs are designed for efficiency so any of those would be a poor choice and neodymium is about the last practical thing you could spend money on for (possible) gains, particularly since it's likely OP isn't really trying to play fartbox but just wants a bit louder for music.
There are neodynium subs that are good on music. People use DD Z's in sound quality cars. Like actual competing cars. There was that old critical mass sub that was a neo and was like revered for its SQ, iirc. I got to see one of those in person, they are cool subs. I've designed for one or two of them before. Neos aren't all designed purely to be SPL woofers. They are super duper wicked expensive, though. And you do usually see neo's in SPL applications, to be fair lol.

Subs like Fi's team woofers can handle a lot of power, and they seem to do really good on low notes. Big heavy coils (huge Mms), almost absurd wattage ratings, long through, low Fs, huge motors. I definitely wouldn't think of them as efficient. They are very powerful, though.

I did a box for a Fi SP4 15 in the trunk of a Jetta on 2000-2500w, and he could've scored in the high 140's with that. It was very close to as loud as my 2 18's. It was crazy. Since I started designing, the amount of 2000w+ rms rated woofers has really expanded. I'm constantly doing designs for 2000w woofers like it's just somewhat normal to have that power level now.


OP, if your backseats fold down, how big is the opening? I think more power is going to be your friend if you can only fit a 12. Like I was saying, there's tons of woofers that handle high power now. There's plenty to choose from, and they're all different. I would look at woofers that like small boxes, you might be able to fit more than you think. DC is one that comes to mind that has really high powered woofers. List a power level or budget, and see what fits inside of that. Idk what SPL quite means to you, but we did 2 dc xl 10's in a rx-8, which is a very terrible sized car for bass, and we did forward firing and it was doing 147.xxx on low power @ 35 hz, and sounded good, like many other ported boxes. That box was 2 cubes net on 3800w with 2 very small batteries.
 
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hispls

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There are neodynium subs that are good on music. People use DD Z's in sound quality cars. Like actual competing cars. There was that old critical mass sub that was a neo and was like revered for its SQ, iirc. I got to see one of those in person, they are cool subs. I've designed for one or two of them before. Neos aren't all designed purely to be SPL woofers. They are super duper wicked expensive, though. And you do usually see neo's in SPL applications, to be fair lol.
For what it's worth, I'd say someone who knows what they are doing and has good EQ could make nearly any sub on the market play flat from 20-80hz at 120dB for an RTA competition. We certainly don't need neodymium for that job and certainly not at the price of the stuff ever since corporate welfare to """green""" energy spiked demand.

I've seen that CM woofer and I don't think it's anything special. Good, but grossly overpriced just to give the impression that it was something ultra premium. That companies marketing was super cringe inducing bafflegab and I remember when internal shots of some of their extreme priced amps came out they were identical to several Korean/Chinese boards on the market. The shame of it all is that that company had enough retards with deep pockets on the hook that they could have probably hired some top engineers and actually advanced the industry.

Otherwise, if weight savings isn't utmost priority and any cost, stuff like the TC 3HP neo version or even the Fi BL and BTL could do the same thing with ferrite. NRT/Beehive/Teardrop designs from TC and Aura may require neodymium but they don't use a whole lot of it and I haven't even looked into that enough to know if that couldn't be done with other materials.

The point is, that the big value of neodymium is going to be in numbers chasing once you hit the absolute limits of what ceramic can do and just need to brute force more motor force into the job.

To come at it another way, and anecdotally, I run the Shocker Sigs. Switching from the 05 sig to neo sig typically gains 0.1 to 1.0dB (I would say 1 full dB is very unusual) but at 4x the price per motor (from Thilo, and 15 years ago pricing). IF you have an extreme build and are sitting neck in neck at dB Drag finals sure you'd pay a few grand more for subs to try to gain a few tenths, by the time you're at world finals you've probably already found every other gain to be had and gaining the same amount with more power may be impractical, more costly, or perhaps even impossible if you're at compression on your subs. That's the guys who bought those motors when they came out and the value was there. I doubt OP will never buy an SPL meter, will not put hundreds of hours into testing and tweaking, and will not ever be at the point where he is looking to gain a few more tenths at any cost. At his likely budget and power level the difference between say DD95XX and DD-Z in price could buy him better sound/output/performance being spent almost anywhere.

And lastly, say what you like but my Sig neos are extremely peaky. They can be forced to play flat but at the expense of a lot of output and it gets worse the less cone area you put on that motor. If flat and wide bandwidth were my goal I could do it a lot cheaper with a lot of other stuff.
Conversely 12" cone on the '05 ferrite motor is almost impossible to make not sound good. I wish my old ass were up to wrestling heavy subs anymore I'd be running those in every vehicle.
 
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THATpurpleKUSH

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4 10s side firing with a rear firing port would be a good starting point. Those ions have the trunk space to accomplish this.

About a 4cf box with a 6 or 8 inch aero port on 2k should net upper 140s easy in that car.
 

shredder2

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I am currently running two 12 inch LXR subs from the 80s on a precision power Sedona APA200 and Rockford punch door speakers. Can’t fit anything bigger than a 12 in the trunk but m my backseats do fold down.
So if I am reading this correct you have those old Lanzar LXR 12's (a pair) on basically an old 200W PPI Sedona amp. The amp has what... 10g pigtail power leads?
You're on a forum alluding that you're after SPL so people chime in about neo subs etc when a legit 1000w-1500w on a set of decent 500w 10's or 12's will be a huge output upgrade and probably enough for what you're after. A set of Blau 12's on a budget 1K might do it.
The limiting thing will be available space.
LXR 12's?.. iirc those were like 150-200rms if they are what I am thinking of so more output with modern gear (even budget) is a no-brainer.
 

Buck

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For what it's worth, I'd say someone who knows what they are doing and has good EQ could make nearly any sub on the market play flat from 20-80hz at 120dB for an RTA competition. We certainly don't need neodymium for that job and certainly not at the price of the stuff ever since corporate welfare to """green""" energy spiked demand.

I've seen that CM woofer and I don't think it's anything special. Good, but grossly overpriced just to give the impression that it was something ultra premium. That companies marketing was super cringe inducing bafflegab and I remember when internal shots of some of their extreme priced amps came out they were identical to several Korean/Chinese boards on the market. The shame of it all is that that company had enough retards with deep pockets on the hook that they could have probably hired some top engineers and actually advanced the industry.

Otherwise, if weight savings isn't utmost priority and any cost, stuff like the TC 3HP neo version or even the Fi BL and BTL could do the same thing with ferrite. NRT/Beehive/Teardrop designs from TC and Aura may require neodymium but they don't use a whole lot of it and I haven't even looked into that enough to know if that couldn't be done with other materials.

The point is, that the big value of neodymium is going to be in numbers chasing once you hit the absolute limits of what ceramic can do and just need to brute force more motor force into the job.

To come at it another way, and anecdotally, I run the Shocker Sigs. Switching from the 05 sig to neo sig typically gains 0.1 to 1.0dB (I would say 1 full dB is very unusual) but at 4x the price per motor (from Thilo, and 15 years ago pricing). IF you have an extreme build and are sitting neck in neck at dB Drag finals sure you'd pay a few grand more for subs to try to gain a few tenths, by the time you're at world finals you've probably already found every other gain to be had and gaining the same amount with more power may be impractical, more costly, or perhaps even impossible if you're at compression on your subs. That's the guys who bought those motors when they came out and the value was there. I doubt OP will never buy an SPL meter, will not put hundreds of hours into testing and tweaking, and will not ever be at the point where he is looking to gain a few more tenths at any cost. At his likely budget and power level the difference between say DD95XX and DD-Z in price could buy him better sound/output/performance being spent almost anywhere.

And lastly, say what you like but my Sig neos are extremely peaky. They can be forced to play flat but at the expense of a lot of output and it gets worse the less cone area you put on that motor. If flat and wide bandwidth were my goal I could do it a lot cheaper with a lot of other stuff.
Conversely 12" cone on the '05 ferrite motor is almost impossible to make not sound good. I wish my old ass were up to wrestling heavy subs anymore I'd be running those in every vehicle.
Yeah man that woofer was stupid expensive, for sure. And I agree about the performance and price, if I read you correctly. You don't need a neo for high performance. And I'd rather buy 2 subs that are ferrite over 1 neo, in most cases.

OP did say SPL. But if you just want loud musical, there's tons of options.

If OP does give a power rating or a budget, we can really help.
 

hispls

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if I read you correctly. You don't need a neo for high performance.
That's about the size of it. If you're buying into SPL oriented woofer (3" coil, tight gap, big motor) there is only a very slight edge to be had from there to neodymium and that's not even guaranteed in any given application. I'd say it's literally the last place you want to try to find gains unless you just have money to burn, and buying DD-Z or any flavor of the month knockoff of that isn't going to be the silver bullet to pull trophies away from guys running far less efficient motors who have put in the work to make their build loud.

Along those lines I'm optimistic to see how the re-release of the Solo X pans out. Seems like it should be very strong for a ferrite motor based on the videos they released of prototypes.
 

Buck

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That's about the size of it. If you're buying into SPL oriented woofer (3" coil, tight gap, big motor) there is only a very slight edge to be had from there to neodymium and that's not even guaranteed in any given application. I'd say it's literally the last place you want to try to find gains unless you just have money to burn, and buying DD-Z or any flavor of the month knockoff of that isn't going to be the silver bullet to pull trophies away from guys running far less efficient motors who have put in the work to make their build loud.

Along those lines I'm optimistic to see how the re-release of the Solo X pans out. Seems like it should be very strong for a ferrite motor based on the videos they released of prototypes.
Oh no way! I like the old solo X's, they were the highest RMS woofer for a while. Is it still a big 4" coil?
 

macsdad

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DC Audio XL SPL 10, 2200wrms, requires 1.0cuft ported each.
 

hispls

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Oh no way! I like the old solo X's, they were the highest RMS woofer for a while. Is it still a big 4" coil?
Originals used a chunky 3.5" coil. Prototype in the teaser video from Kicker had 3" 4 layer coil and a very tight gap. The old ones could definitely take some power though, the new ones not so much but I expect them to be very efficient.
 

Buck

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Originals used a chunky 3.5" coil. Prototype in the teaser video from Kicker had 3" 4 layer coil and a very tight gap. The old ones could definitely take some power though, the new ones not so much but I expect them to be very efficient.
It's been so long I've forgotten. It'll be cool to design for a new one, hopefully. They're still square?
 

hispls

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They're still square?
Of course and they still have replaceable softpart cartridges.
Also just remembering the old 12" version did use 3" coil so perhaps the larger cones will still use a larger coil? Still too early to say but I am optimistic after watching this.
 
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Buck

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Of course and they still have replaceable softpart cartridges.
Also just remembering the old 12" version did use 3" coil so perhaps the larger cones will still use a larger coil? Still too early to say but I am optimistic after watching this.
I actually don't mind the L5's and L7's. They don't sound the best but they get loud.
 

Buck

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Of course and they still have replaceable softpart cartridges.
Also just remembering the old 12" version did use 3" coil so perhaps the larger cones will still use a larger coil? Still too early to say but I am optimistic after watching this.
That's a hell of a pole on that motor it looks like.
 

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