sony single din, line driver for sub amp?

[trumpet 5,000+ posts]

Yep, it's definitely a balancing act. Too little input voltage and you won't drive the amplifier to full output, but you will have a ton of noise (noise floor) and distortion form cranking the gain up while trying. Too much input voltage and your volume 'knob' will be too sensitive (gets too loud too quickly) and you may also overdrive the amplifier inputs. Both situations can suffer from clipping, whether you're clipping your head's outputs trying to get all the voltage it can muster, or if your high voltage line driver is clipping the preamp stage on your amplfier from being overdriven. Amplifying either of those is less than ideal.
In the end, the goal is to leave the gain alone if at all possible (and it is) or to adjust it as little as possible. I mean, unless you really like the sound of hiss and/or distorted anemic bass, strident midrange, etc...

This specific discussion is asking about a line driver ONLY on the SUBWOOFER amp. Who gives a **** about hiss on a subwoofer amp? And since when did turning the gain knob become such a bad thing?

edit: Some reading material:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/car-audio-truth-myths-industry-dogma/128332-setting-amplifier-gain-higher-makes-amplifier-work-harder.html

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/car-audio-truth-myths-industry-dogma/103086-adding-pre-amp-line-driver-will-improve-sq.html

I don't remember reading the second thread, so I'm going through it now.

 

[hispls 5,000+ posts]

I'm typically opposed to adding more things to the signal chain. Every new piece you have to deal with adds potential for noise, distortion, or other undesirable effects. That being said I've had good results with line driver, but if the source unit is garbage it'll only amplify that, or if the line driver is garbage it'll hurt more than help. Garbage in-garbage out.

 

[ciaonzo 5,000+ posts]

This specific discussion is asking about a line driver ONLY on the SUBWOOFER amp. Who gives a **** about hiss on a subwoofer amp? And since when did turning the gain knob become such a bad thing?
edit: Some reading material:

Setting the amplifier gain higher makes the amplifier work harder - Car Audio | DIYMA.com

Adding Pre-Amp / Line Driver will improve SQ - Car Audio | DIYMA.com

I don't remember reading the second thread, so I'm going through it now.

That hiss is comprised of many frequencies, not unlike white or pink noise. Plenty of low frequency content in there. Aside from that, you lose a significant amount of dynamic range which is why I said anemic bass. Try it on 90% of setups - set the gain without a line driver and get pretty good results, then add a line driver and reset everything. I guarantee you it will be far more dynamic, on top of being cleaner. Line drivers are a godsend for bass. Take a look at every well known and well liked bass processor, they all have high voltage preout sections. Some of them swing out to 9v-13v.

 

[trumpet 5,000+ posts]

That hiss is comprised of many frequencies, not unlike white or pink noise. Plenty of low frequency content in there. Aside from that, you lose a significant amount of dynamic range which is why I said anemic bass. Try it on 90% of setups - set the gain without a line driver and get pretty good results, then add a line driver and reset everything. I guarantee you it will be far more dynamic, on top of being cleaner. Line drivers are a godsend for bass. Take a look at every well known and well liked bass processor, they all have high voltage preout sections. Some of them swing out to 9v-13v.

I never use line drivers and I have never had a problem with dynamics from my bass. If the gain is set properly there should not be a lack of dynamics if the music has dynamic range to begin with.

 

[ciaonzo 5,000+ posts]

I never use line drivers and I have never had a problem with dynamics from my bass. If the gain is set properly there should not be a lack of dynamics if the music has dynamic range to begin with.

If you have never used a line driver then you cannot speak to the comparison that I just asked you to make. I'm just not even going to respond to your second statement there because I now know this topic is over your head.
The point for the sake of the OP is this... Anyone using a head that puts out 2v-4v will benefit from a line driver, FOR ANY PURPOSE. Period. Especially since most amps today will accept upwards of 7v-12v of input.

 

[2010HHRUMADBRUH 10+ year member]

I'm all confused!!.. one point you said run the mids off the head unit,then off an amp...wtf?!?!Taking 4 volts and splitting it won't get you 4 volts on the 2 ends...you'll be back at 2.

if you must use it,go with the sub,I guess.It would benefit the mids /highs more,but the way your trying to run everything is um.....

Right now, the stock mids in front doors are powered by the head unit. I am thinking about running them on an amp to get a little more power from them.

What's the max input voltage the xm-6020 can take?

 

[2010HHRUMADBRUH 10+ year member]

Yep, it's definitely a balancing act. Too little input voltage and you won't drive the amplifier to full output, but you will have a ton of noise (noise floor) and distortion form cranking the gain up while trying. Too much input voltage and your volume 'knob' will be too sensitive (gets too loud too quickly) and you may also overdrive the amplifier inputs. Both situations can suffer from clipping, whether you're clipping your head's outputs trying to get all the voltage it can muster, or if your high voltage line driver is clipping the preamp stage on your amplfier from being overdriven. Amplifying either of those is less than ideal.
In the end, the goal is to leave the gain alone if at all possible (and it is) or to adjust it as little as possible. I mean, unless you really like the sound of hiss and/or distorted anemic bass, strident midrange, etc...

I haven't touched the gain in months. I do have an LC-1 on the sub amp though. I can pretty much get to full head unit volume till it starts to distort. (it's just a bar, but I would say about 90%)

 

[2010HHRUMADBRUH 10+ year member]

I'm typically opposed to adding more things to the signal chain. Every new piece you have to deal with adds potential for noise, distortion, or other undesirable effects. That being said I've had good results with line driver, but if the source unit is garbage it'll only amplify that, or if the line driver is garbage it'll hurt more than help. Garbage in-garbage out.

Well I'm gonna assume that the speaker outputs on the stock head unit converted into RCA output and boosted/leveled to 2 or 4v with the line driver is not as good as using the 2v preouts on the sony single din?

I don't know what you are calling garbage. Everything sounds pretty clean and matched. I just wanted the sony for the remote and to have more tuning control.

 

[2010HHRUMADBRUH 10+ year member]

If you have never used a line driver then you cannot speak to the comparison that I just asked you to make. I'm just not even going to respond to your second statement there because I now know this topic is over your head.
The point for the sake of the OP is this... Anyone using a head that puts out 2v-4v will benefit from a line driver, FOR ANY PURPOSE. Period. Especially since most amps today will accept upwards of 7v-12v of input.

I'm gonna give the sony unit a shot and just play around with it. I know a guy near me who has a DD1 so I can probably get him to let me use it to check when the head unit starts to clip and go from there.

As of now, if I'm only getting 2v to the 6020, then I don't see any difference for the tweeters if I switch to the sony unit. I have the gain all the way down and it's still loud as hell. The sub amp, is around 80%, but that's because I use the LC-1 with it and I monitor the voltage (only running the saz1500d in 2 ohm, so I'm sure it would take a hell of lot of clipping to get it under 14v, which it never seems to go)

What do you guys suggest I set the line driver voltage to, if I only use it on the sundown saz1500d v1? From what I looked up, 6v is what it can take? If I'm only giving it 2-4v, this should be a decent improvement right?

 

[04murdalanche]

Wrong.
considering I changed the deck out, the only "advertised" difference was pre outs, so say what you want.. But that's what I base it off of. And you still have yet to name any of the other "components" that supposedly make it better.. Besides pre out voltage of course..

It's not the higher preouts that made it sound cleaner.

as stated above, what is it then?

Total bullshit.

no

Then the amp wasn't set up properly the first time.

The subject of preout voltage has been covered here a thousand times. I suggest you read some of them.

Actually it was set with an O-scope. But I'm sure you're gonna say something like "you don't know what your doing" so that's okay.

 

[hispls 5,000+ posts]

Well I'm gonna assume that the speaker outputs on the stock head unit converted into RCA output and boosted/leveled to 2 or 4v with the line driver is not as good as using the 2v preouts on the sony single din?
I don't know what you are calling garbage. Everything sounds pretty clean and matched. I just wanted the sony for the remote and to have more tuning control.

Not calling anything garbage. Without an o-scope or other sophisticated equipment who knows which piece adds what to your signal? That's the point. One more thing is one more thing that can cause trouble or go wrong.

 

[2010HHRUMADBRUH 10+ year member]

Not calling anything garbage. Without an o-scope or other sophisticated equipment who knows which piece adds what to your signal? That's the point. One more thing is one more thing that can cause trouble or go wrong.

Now seems a better time than ever - I've been eying that ebay o-scope for $60 - is it worth it? Would it be useful for everything I need it for, with everything I've mentioned in this thread?

Arm DSO201 Portable Pocket Sized Nano Handheld Digital Storage Oscilloscope AHN | eBay

 

[hispls 5,000+ posts]

Now seems a better time than ever - I've been eying that ebay o-scope for $60 - is it worth it? Would it be useful for everything I need it for, with everything I've mentioned in this thread?
Arm DSO201 Portable Pocket Sized Nano Handheld Digital Storage Oscilloscope AHN | eBay

How far wrong can you go for 60$?

 

[maylar 10+ year member]

Actually it was set with an O-scope. But I'm sure you're gonna say something like "you don't know what your doing" so that's okay.

I don't doubt your experiences. There are lots of things in a HU that affect SQ.. the DACs, opamps, and especially the DSP. Even circuitboard layout and passive components have an effect. Pioneer goes as far as using a solid copper chassis for their high end unit. As price goes up so does the quality of these components. And preout voltage seems to follow suit - the higher SQ decks have higher voltage preouts. Personally I think they do that on purpose to get us to spend more money. Look at Alpine's under $200 decks and they're all still 2V.

Gain controls are for adjusting an amp's input sensitivity to the supplied signal level. That's all they do. Higher gain settings don't make the amp work harder, run hotter or distort more. It's just an input sensitivity control.

 

[maylar 10+ year member]

Now seems a better time than ever - I've been eying that ebay o-scope for $60 - is it worth it? Would it be useful for everything I need it for, with everything I've mentioned in this thread?
Arm DSO201 Portable Pocket Sized Nano Handheld Digital Storage Oscilloscope AHN | eBay

Yes. I made a thread on how useful they are, here:

http://www.caraudio.com/forums/general-discussion/558373-why-you-need-oscilloscope.html