Senate passes 800 billion dollar stimulus without 1 member readind the actual bill!!!

[audiolife 5,000+ posts]

Wow, that bold part sounds like you conceding my point. Thanks.

Yes, China doesn't make as many car parts as Mexico, true. But how many other parts do they make? How about the electrical systems, how many of the components are made in Mexico? Do you see my point here? China is shipping tons of their poorly made shit to Mexico to be assembled by Mexicans to be sold here in the good ol' US of A as an American car.

Shit, even Hellen Keller could fucking see that.

Kef

umm no retard, I shown what jobs were lost via NAFTA now show me where there were gains in jobs in my area by nafta....bet you will have a tough time of that. :laugh:Even Helen Keller would know what I meant. Unless you are being ticky tacky about North Americans getting jobs over the Chinese which again I am talking about MY AREA where I live, which it is not Mexico nor China and not even Canada.

 

[w00tah 10+ year member]

umm no retard, I shown what jobs were lost via NAFTA now show me where there were gains in jobs in my area by nafta....bet you will have a tough time of that. :laugh:Even Helen Keller would know what I meant. Unless you are being ticky tacky about North Americans getting jobs over the Chinese which again I am talking about MY AREA where I live, which it is not Mexico nor China and not even Canada.

Wow, because YOUR AREA lost jobs, then the WHOLE US has lost all of it's manufacturing jobs to Mexico because of NAFTA.

Way to go, douchetaco.

Kef

 

[bball09124 10+ year member]

umm no retard, I shown what jobs were lost via NAFTA now show me where there were gains in jobs in my area by nafta....bet you will have a tough time of that. :laugh:Even Helen Keller would know what I meant. Unless you are being ticky tacky about North Americans getting jobs over the Chinese which again I am talking about MY AREA where I live, which it is not Mexico nor China and not even Canada.

The people who sell the products made in China, the shipping companies that transport the products from China to the U.S., the distributors of the products, the people who do the advertising for the companies that sell the Chinese products, the people who do the taxes/finances for the businesses that sell Chinese products.

Just because 1 manufacturing job is moved from the US to China here doesn't mean a few can't be created in America as a result. As a result of high profit margins due to cheaper goods companies have extra cash to hire new workers (or in this economic climate, hold on to them). However it seems like these profit margins are going in CEO's pockets rather then back into the company.

Seems Republicans have been arguing the free-trade, laissez faire ideology recently while also arguing against outsourcing jobs. You can only have one or the other in reality. If another country has a lower opportunity cost to produce a good than the U.S. why shouldn't we allow them to produce it? In the end we gain value from it as well.

You will often hear about a factory shutting down and the loss of jobs but there is no way to tell if that is hurting the economy or will help the economy in the long run.

 

[duece212 5,000+ posts]

The people who sell the products made in China, the shipping companies that transport the products from China to the U.S., the distributors of the products, the people who do the advertising for the companies that sell the Chinese products, the people who do the taxes/finances for the businesses that sell Chinese products.
Just because 1 manufacturing job is moved from the US to China here doesn't mean a few can't be created in America as a result. As a result of high profit margins due to cheaper goods companies have extra cash to hire new workers (or in this economic climate, hold on to them). However it seems like these profit margins are going in CEO's pockets rather then back into the company.

Seems Republicans have been arguing the free-trade, laissez faire ideology recently while also arguing against outsourcing jobs. You can only have one or the other in reality. If another country has a lower opportunity cost to produce a good than the U.S. why shouldn't we allow them to produce it? In the end we gain value from it as well.

Sure we gain value, but we still need low level jobs here in the states to help support our people through employment.

That said there is no way around outsourcing without protectionism, its smart business for sure, just hurts the American people...especially low skilled workers.

 

[Rashaddd 5,000+ posts]

Sure we gain value, but we still need low level jobs here in the states to help support our people through employment.
That said there is no way around outsourcing without protectionism, its smart business for sure, just hurts the American people...especially low skilled workers.

Apparently Americans don't like capitalism in all of its forms, just the parts that benefit them.

 

[audiolife 5,000+ posts]

Wow, because YOUR AREA lost jobs, then the WHOLE US has lost all of it's manufacturing jobs to Mexico because of NAFTA.

Way to go, douchetaco.

Kef

AHH got you to admit to step one now on to step 2 show me where nafta created jobs in the UNITED STATES.....none!

 

[audiolife 5,000+ posts]

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

The people who sell the products made in China, the shipping companies that transport the products from China to the U.S., the distributors of the products, the people who do the advertising for the companies that sell the Chinese products, the people who do the taxes/finances for the businesses that sell Chinese products.
Just because 1 manufacturing job is moved from the US to China here doesn't mean a few can't be created in America as a result. As a result of high profit margins due to cheaper goods companies have extra cash to hire new workers (or in this economic climate, hold on to them). However it seems like these profit margins are going in CEO's pockets rather then back into the company.

Seems Republicans have been arguing the free-trade, laissez faire ideology recently while also arguing against outsourcing jobs. You can only have one or the other in reality. If another country has a lower opportunity cost to produce a good than the U.S. why shouldn't we allow them to produce it? In the end we gain value from it as well.

You will often hear about a factory shutting down and the loss of jobs but there is no way to tell if that is hurting the economy or will help the economy in the long run.

China? seems far left libbies do not even know the topic at hand LOL about as well as they pay taxes:laugh: FYI I would be classified as a Blue Dog Democrate not a republican.

 

[duece212 5,000+ posts]

Apparently Americans don't like capitalism in all of its forms, just the parts that benefit them.

and? Out of a whole economic system there are going to be things some people don't "like", notice I did say I realized it was smart business...

I just don't like that I don't have an answer to the outsourcing conundrum, companies need to do it to compete, but we need jobs here too....not knowing the answer to fix that situation is what I don't like

 

[02dodgeram 10+ year member]

I'm a very well informed liberal living in Texas and I drive a pickup. I even donated my $15 to the Obama campaign to get an official magnetic bumper sticker. Go me!

Get your news from somewhere other than Fox News. If it's the truth their speaking, then you should be able to find other avenues of getting the same information. Matt Drudge, Newt Gingrich, and republican consultants don't count either. MSNBC doesn't count as non-partisan at all either. CNN does a pretty good job of presenting all views and sticking to the facts. I get pissed off about all kinds of things they say because I don't agree with them, and consider half it propaganda they're simply repeating to get viewers, but the truth is that they do a good job of presenting as many views as they can. I don't care who owns what. The people that own these companies don't care what's being said. They care about capturing an audience because greed is a part of human nature, and anyone with $10 million plus wouldn't be where they are without greedy aspirations. It's not a bad thing, and quite necessary in our system.

Being on one side of the political spectrum doesn't mean you agree with every single thing your side does. I do wholeheartedly agree with the stimulus bill, and I've read the library of congress version all the way through. I can watch 15 minutes of Fox and make a 10 page list of extreme logic jumps they make to reach their conclusions. Study economics if you don't understand how the stimulus bill works. I don't think it's nearly big enough for the size of the problem we have right now.

Free trade isn't a good thing for America if you get past the Cliff's notes version of economics. NAFTA had a good idea, but it's been damaging to our middle class. Evolution is scientific fact among the educated. Global warming is scientific fact too. Religion is a catch 22 of deceitful lies (it doesn't matter which religion you're talking about). I know a good chunk of people don't agree with me, but those are the hard facts backed up by history, the scientific method, logic, and intellectualism. I could go on all day about the hypocrasies of both parties, but in the end the question is, what's the answer? You can bash what's been proposed all you want, but unless you come up with a better idea, it's pointless. Economics cycles generally move in 18 month periods. This stimulus plan wont come to fruition for a year and a half. You'll start seeing the unemployment rate level off by Q4 of '09, and start getting back to normal by about Q3 of 2010 as long as we don't kneecap this plan.

It would be nice to give everyone a $10k tax cut, but not fiscally responsible in the long term. What he did instead is cut everyone's taxes $400 and $800 for families (he wanted $1000 and $500, but it was compromised down). Any small business that's bringing home $250k+ after their cost of sales is doing fine, and can afford to have their taxes raised for the good of the nation. He's not going to get most of their votes, but it's a necessary evil to reduce the deficit in the long run. Any non "bowtie economist" will tell you that in recession, the government should default to spending money. It's Keynesian economics 101, which up until about 10 years ago, when the neoconservative propaganda machine kicked it into high gear, was taken as gospel among academics.

Also, I've been able to read Obama's political chess moves pretty well since he started becoming a viable candidate in the democratic primaries. I smell 2 more big bills like this in the coming year and a half (after this Omnibus thing). One will be healthcare, and the other energy. They'll work in tandem with the current stimulus package into a bigger picture of recovery, and I'll bet my truck that the average household income will be higher when he gets out of office in 2016.

The republican party was caught totally off-guard by him, and he's played them perfectly ever since. They were gearing up to fight Hillary, and Obama came along and stomped them. I do believe that in the 2010 mid-terms we'll probably see some republican gains in the house, but the senate is still totally up in the air at this point. The plan wont have fully worked itself out yet.

Turn off Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly, and Rush Limbaugh for awhile, and start looking at how Obama is thinking with the assumption that he's not some Hitler antichrist, and instead that he really wants to do what's best for the country. Every time a democrat or a liberal starts getting to their point on Fox news, they cut to commercial because they're magically out of time. It's intellectual corruption to muzzle the other side's arguments, especially when it's meant to inform the public. I gave Bush that benefit of the doubt, and still don't loath the man. I just think he was misguided on a lot of his decisions. I didn't vote for him in 2000, and he was my governor. And when you snicker about the word "re-nig" used in the same sentence as the president of the united states, you are a racist. Plain and simple. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but that's what racism is.

It's all about balance in the long run. Too far left is 1980s Russia. Too far right is 1940s Germany. We're already a capitolism cupcake with socialist sprinkles on top, and have been since social security, medicare, and medicade passed. Laisez Faire capitolism gives you 1910s American Guilded Age times where 12 year old children lost arms in factories all the time. Karl Marx saw this and penned the principles of socialism. If you drop the knee jerk nausea when words like "nationalize", "socialism", and "universal" are used, you can start informing yourself on the bigger picture issues that have all come together for our current situation.

I might not know as much about car audio (hence my post count), but I do know politics and economics. I studied them extensively in college, and if you don't get it, just take my word for it that things will be better when he leaves than when Obama arrived.

 

[w00tah 10+ year member]

I'm a very well informed liberal living in Texas and I drive a pickup. I even donated my $15 to the Obama campaign to get an official magnetic bumper sticker. Go me!
Get your news from somewhere other than Fox News. If it's the truth their speaking, then you should be able to find other avenues of getting the same information. Matt Drudge, Newt Gingrich, and republican consultants don't count either. MSNBC doesn't count as non-partisan at all either. CNN does a pretty good job of presenting all views and sticking to the facts. I get pissed off about all kinds of things they say because I don't agree with them, and consider half it propaganda they're simply repeating to get viewers, but the truth is that they do a good job of presenting as many views as they can. I don't care who owns what. The people that own these companies don't care what's being said. They care about capturing an audience because greed is a part of human nature, and anyone with $10 million plus wouldn't be where they are without greedy aspirations. It's not a bad thing, and quite necessary in our system.

Being on one side of the political spectrum doesn't mean you agree with every single thing your side does. I do wholeheartedly agree with the stimulus bill, and I've read the library of congress version all the way through. I can watch 15 minutes of Fox and make a 10 page list of extreme logic jumps they make to reach their conclusions. Study economics if you don't understand how the stimulus bill works. I don't think it's nearly big enough for the size of the problem we have right now.

Free trade isn't a good thing for America if you get past the Cliff's notes version of economics. NAFTA had a good idea, but it's been damaging to our middle class. Evolution is scientific fact among the educated. Global warming is scientific fact too. Religion is a catch 22 of deceitful lies (it doesn't matter which religion you're talking about). I know a good chunk of people don't agree with me, but those are the hard facts backed up by history, the scientific method, logic, and intellectualism. I could go on all day about the hypocrasies of both parties, but in the end the question is, what's the answer? You can bash what's been proposed all you want, but unless you come up with a better idea, it's pointless. Economics cycles generally move in 18 month periods. This stimulus plan wont come to fruition for a year and a half. You'll start seeing the unemployment rate level off by Q4 of '09, and start getting back to normal by about Q3 of 2010 as long as we don't kneecap this plan.

It would be nice to give everyone a $10k tax cut, but not fiscally responsible in the long term. What he did instead is cut everyone's taxes $400 and $800 for families (he wanted $1000 and $500, but it was compromised down). Any small business that's bringing home $250k+ after their cost of sales is doing fine, and can afford to have their taxes raised for the good of the nation. He's not going to get most of their votes, but it's a necessary evil to reduce the deficit in the long run. Any non "bowtie economist" will tell you that in recession, the government should default to spending money. It's Keynesian economics 101, which up until about 10 years ago, when the neoconservative propaganda machine kicked it into high gear, was taken as gospel among academics.

Also, I've been able to read Obama's political chess moves pretty well since he started becoming a viable candidate in the democratic primaries. I smell 2 more big bills like this in the coming year and a half (after this Omnibus thing). One will be healthcare, and the other energy. They'll work in tandem with the current stimulus package into a bigger picture of recovery, and I'll bet my truck that the average household income will be higher when he gets out of office in 2016.

The republican party was caught totally off-guard by him, and he's played them perfectly ever since. They were gearing up to fight Hillary, and Obama came along and stomped them. I do believe that in the 2010 mid-terms we'll probably see some republican gains in the house, but the senate is still totally up in the air at this point. The plan wont have fully worked itself out yet.

Turn off Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly, and Rush Limbaugh for awhile, and start looking at how Obama is thinking with the assumption that he's not some Hitler antichrist, and instead that he really wants to do what's best for the country. Every time a democrat or a liberal starts getting to their point on Fox news, they cut to commercial because they're magically out of time. It's intellectual corruption to muzzle the other side's arguments, especially when it's meant to inform the public. I gave Bush that benefit of the doubt, and still don't loath the man. I just think he was misguided on a lot of his decisions. I didn't vote for him in 2000, and he was my governor. And when you snicker about the word "re-nig" used in the same sentence as the president of the united states, you are a racist. Plain and simple. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but that's what racism is.

It's all about balance in the long run. Too far left is 1980s Russia. Too far right is 1940s Germany. We're already a capitolism cupcake with socialist sprinkles on top, and have been since social security, medicare, and medicade passed. Laisez Faire capitolism gives you 1910s American Guilded Age times where 12 year old children lost arms in factories all the time. Karl Marx saw this and penned the principles of socialism. If you drop the knee jerk nausea when words like "nationalize", "socialism", and "universal" are used, you can start informing yourself on the bigger picture issues that have all come together for our current situation.

I might not know as much about car audio (hence my post count), but I do know politics and economics. I studied them extensively in college, and if you don't get it, just take my word for it that things will be better when he leaves than when Obama arrived.

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/clap.gif.178cba2c538c68e720c727fcb024b19c.gif//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/bowdown.gif.b85b23b82970bd22fb6b549c3392f016.gif

Kef

 

[audiolife 5,000+ posts]

I'm a very well informed liberal living in Texas and I drive a pickup. I even donated my $15 to the Obama campaign to get an official magnetic bumper sticker. Go me!
Get your news from somewhere other than Fox News. If it's the truth their speaking, then you should be able to find other avenues of getting the same information. Matt Drudge, Newt Gingrich, and republican consultants don't count either. MSNBC doesn't count as non-partisan at all either. CNN does a pretty good job of presenting all views and sticking to the facts. I get pissed off about all kinds of things they say because I don't agree with them, and consider half it propaganda they're simply repeating to get viewers, but the truth is that they do a good job of presenting as many views as they can. I don't care who owns what. The people that own these companies don't care what's being said. They care about capturing an audience because greed is a part of human nature, and anyone with $10 million plus wouldn't be where they are without greedy aspirations. It's not a bad thing, and quite necessary in our system.

Being on one side of the political spectrum doesn't mean you agree with every single thing your side does. I do wholeheartedly agree with the stimulus bill, and I've read the library of congress version all the way through. I can watch 15 minutes of Fox and make a 10 page list of extreme logic jumps they make to reach their conclusions. Study economics if you don't understand how the stimulus bill works. I don't think it's nearly big enough for the size of the problem we have right now.

Free trade isn't a good thing for America if you get past the Cliff's notes version of economics. NAFTA had a good idea, but it's been damaging to our middle class. Evolution is scientific fact among the educated. Global warming is scientific fact too. Religion is a catch 22 of deceitful lies (it doesn't matter which religion you're talking about). I know a good chunk of people don't agree with me, but those are the hard facts backed up by history, the scientific method, logic, and intellectualism. I could go on all day about the hypocrasies of both parties, but in the end the question is, what's the answer? You can bash what's been proposed all you want, but unless you come up with a better idea, it's pointless. Economics cycles generally move in 18 month periods. This stimulus plan wont come to fruition for a year and a half. You'll start seeing the unemployment rate level off by Q4 of '09, and start getting back to normal by about Q3 of 2010 as long as we don't kneecap this plan.

It would be nice to give everyone a $10k tax cut, but not fiscally responsible in the long term. What he did instead is cut everyone's taxes $400 and $800 for families (he wanted $1000 and $500, but it was compromised down). Any small business that's bringing home $250k+ after their cost of sales is doing fine, and can afford to have their taxes raised for the good of the nation. He's not going to get most of their votes, but it's a necessary evil to reduce the deficit in the long run. Any non "bowtie economist" will tell you that in recession, the government should default to spending money. It's Keynesian economics 101, which up until about 10 years ago, when the neoconservative propaganda machine kicked it into high gear, was taken as gospel among academics.

Also, I've been able to read Obama's political chess moves pretty well since he started becoming a viable candidate in the democratic primaries. I smell 2 more big bills like this in the coming year and a half (after this Omnibus thing). One will be healthcare, and the other energy. They'll work in tandem with the current stimulus package into a bigger picture of recovery, and I'll bet my truck that the average household income will be higher when he gets out of office in 2016.

The republican party was caught totally off-guard by him, and he's played them perfectly ever since. They were gearing up to fight Hillary, and Obama came along and stomped them. I do believe that in the 2010 mid-terms we'll probably see some republican gains in the house, but the senate is still totally up in the air at this point. The plan wont have fully worked itself out yet.

Turn off Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly, and Rush Limbaugh for awhile, and start looking at how Obama is thinking with the assumption that he's not some Hitler antichrist, and instead that he really wants to do what's best for the country. Every time a democrat or a liberal starts getting to their point on Fox news, they cut to commercial because they're magically out of time. It's intellectual corruption to muzzle the other side's arguments, especially when it's meant to inform the public. I gave Bush that benefit of the doubt, and still don't loath the man. I just think he was misguided on a lot of his decisions. I didn't vote for him in 2000, and he was my governor. And when you snicker about the word "re-nig" used in the same sentence as the president of the united states, you are a racist. Plain and simple. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but that's what racism is.

It's all about balance in the long run. Too far left is 1980s Russia. Too far right is 1940s Germany. We're already a capitolism cupcake with socialist sprinkles on top, and have been since social security, medicare, and medicade passed. Laisez Faire capitolism gives you 1910s American Guilded Age times where 12 year old children lost arms in factories all the time. Karl Marx saw this and penned the principles of socialism. If you drop the knee jerk nausea when words like "nationalize", "socialism", and "universal" are used, you can start informing yourself on the bigger picture issues that have all come together for our current situation.

I might not know as much about car audio (hence my post count), but I do know politics and economics. I studied them extensively in college, and if you don't get it, just take my word for it that things will be better when he leaves than when Obama arrived.

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif I have a DEMOCRAT cousin who has a masters degree in political science that disagrees with you totally. There is nothing in that stimulus bill that provides long term jobs for the most part.

 

[w00tah 10+ year member]

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif I have a DEMOCRAT cousin who has a masters degree in political science that disagrees with you totally. There is nothing in that stimulus bill that provides long term jobs for the most part.

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

The infrastructure required to pull off most of it will //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

Kef

 

[audiolife 5,000+ posts]

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif
The infrastructure required to pull off most of it will //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

Kef

umm no. this is why they had to pull off from saying this bill would create 3-4 million jobs to saying it will create or SAVE 3.5 million jobs. BIG difference:laugh:Just as saying he will cut the deficit in half by 2012...he already increased it by 33% within a month.

 

[w00tah 10+ year member]

umm no. this is why they had to pull off from saying this bill would create 3-4 million jobs to saying it will create or SAVE 3.5 million jobs. BIG difference:laugh:Just as saying he will cut the deficit in half by 2012...he already increased it by 33% within a month.

Even if it creates only 500,000 jobs, how much of a % is that of unemployed Americans?

This is straight from the BLS's website:

The number of long-term unemployed (those jobless for 27 weeks or more)

was little changed at 2.6 million in January. Over the past 12 months, the

number of long-term unemployed was up by 1.3 million. The number of persons

unemployed less than 5 weeks rose to 3.7 million in January.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm

Kef

 

[audiolife 5,000+ posts]

Even if it creates only 500,000 jobs, how much of a % is that of unemployed Americans?


This is straight from the BLS's website:

The number of long-term unemployed (those jobless for 27 weeks or more)

was little changed at 2.6 million in January. Over the past 12 months, the

number of long-term unemployed was up by 1.3 million. The number of persons

unemployed less than 5 weeks rose to 3.7 million in January.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm

Kef

that would be an enormous amount of money spent to create 500K jobs. He is looking into spending over a trillion more dollars over 10 years for his health care bs. I am starting to think he is wanting to double the deficit so when he cuts it in half by 2012 he would just have to go on vacation for a year.//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif