Received my 2x 12" RE XXX... But...

[Warbleed 10+ year member]

Read the first sentence in my post you quoted. Im not disputing distortion rises, although with BL optimized drivers the rise is very slight until things start breaking down.
If power really means nothing in how a sub performs (besides simply in output), are you suggesting its fair to test a sub like the XXX, Brahma or W7 with say 10 watts of power, then extrapolate that data to assume this is the driver's sound characteristics? Of course you would not.

Not getting full excursion out of the sub isn't just about not getting the full potential in terms of output, that excursion (or lack there of) does affect the sound of the sub. A subwoofer designed to run at 100 watts RMS can certainly sound 'better' than another sub, also playing at 100 watts, thats actually a superior sub but simply designed to run at 1000 watts or higher. Driver efficiency doesn't simply affect output, the 100 watt driver could likely deliver more output at lower octaves than the bigger/better sub, at 100 watts, again because the other sub isn't designed to move much at that power level.

Are you suggesting excursion, or lack there of, does not affect a driver's sound characterisitcs/performance? Only output?

I am stating as a fact that as excursion increases, so does distortion. As excursion decreases, so does distortion, period.

Provided that you don't clip the amp, there is absolutely no reason why you cannot run a Brahma or XXX with 10 watts. They'd be able to produce more output than you might think at those power levels.

Seriously, you are on the losing side here man. Just give up. Research a bit and you'll realize I have yet to say anything that isn't 100% accurate, and 100% based on pure science. My opinion doesn't even factor into it.

It doesn't matter whether you are using 10, 100, or 1000 watts, the XXX will sound better than every other driver RE makes, period.

Why? Simple. It will have lower distortion at ANY power or excursion level, because it has more displacement and superior linearity at any excursion level.

This really isn't that complicated, I don't understand how so many people fail to understand such a fundamentally simple and obvious concept...this isn't even a debatable subject...logic, reason, and physics do not allow you to arrive at any other conclusion.

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

I am stating as a fact that as excursion increases, so does distortion. As excursion decreases, so does distortion, period.

Uh oh, your fact arguement again. lol Just messin with ya. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif Seriously tho, Im not disputing distortion rises as cone excursion increases. If you think I am, show me where Ive said this.

But to counter your absolute position on this point, if what you were suggesting was 100% true, when comparing two subs, the one that excurted less, or less of its potential, would inheritantly distort less and sound 'better'. This of course ignore the design of each driver.

Provided that you don't clip the amp, there is absolutely no reason why you cannot run a Brahma or XXX with 10 watts. They'd be able to produce more output than you might think at those power levels.

I never said you could not run one of those subs at that power level. What I did say was you would most likely get better overall performance from a sub designed to run at or near 10 watts. It will likely be more efficient and/or have a softer suspension to allow it more excursion for that limited power input. Again, if distortion levels were everything, we'd simply gather all the subs together, stick them in front of a mic to test distortion levels, and declare one sub the winner/best/etc.

Seriously, you are on the losing side here man. Just give up. Research a bit and you'll realize I have yet to say anything that isn't 100% accurate, and 100% based on pure science. My opinion doesn't even factor into it.

No need to look at this as some sort of competition. Im not looking to win or lose, Im looking to learn. Ive seen this debate touched on back and forth, and so far as Im concerned there is no clear cut answer put forth yet. Frankly, your logic, while 100% sound, is ignoring the issue Im trying to address. Im not speaking of distortion output only. Again, when people here compare subs, do they only compare raw distortion numbers, or do they talk about things like low end extension, transient response, etc. No the power input level will not affect transient response, but it will affect things like low end extension/authority. You will not convince me a sub with a stiff suspension like the xxx will have the low end authority its designed for while only running at 10 watts, or even 100 watts.

And yes I know what 10 watts is capable of, I have a friend who is a home audio tube amp freak. He misses no opportunity to show me how loud his 8wattx2 amplifier can get.

It doesn't matter whether you are using 10, 100, or 1000 watts, the XXX will sound better than every other driver RE makes, period.
Why? Simple. It will have lower distortion at ANY power or excursion level, because it has more displacement and superior linearity at any excursion level.

Again coming back to distortion. argh The xxx will have less distortion than any other RE sub at a given excursion, I agree. BUT, will the RE or SE have more excursion (and thus more air displacement) at a given -power level-.. say 100 watts, given the stiff suspension on the xxx? And if so, wont this also affect its low end extension, if nothing else? Yes, it will. Again, more to this discussion than distortion levels at a given excursion level.

This really isn't that complicated, I don't understand how so many people fail to understand such a fundamentally simple and obvious concept...this isn't even a debatable subject...logic, reason, and physics do not allow you to arrive at any other conclusion.

I guess we just aren't as smart as you eh? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/tongue.gif.6130eb82179565f6db8d26d6001dcd24.gif More going on here than simple distortion output graphs warbleed.

 

[Warbleed 10+ year member]

Uh oh, your fact arguement again. lol Just messin with ya. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif Seriously tho, Im not disputing distortion rises as cone excursion increases. If you think I am, show me where Ive said this.
But to counter your absolute position on this point, if what you were suggesting was 100% true, when comparing two subs, the one that excurted less, or less of its potential, would inheritantly distort less and sound 'better'. This of course ignore the design of each driver.

I never said you could not run one of those subs at that power level. What I did say was you would most likely get better overall performance from a sub designed to run at or near 10 watts. It will likely be more efficient and/or have a softer suspension to allow it more excursion for that limited power input. Again, if distortion levels were everything, we'd simply gather all the subs together, stick them in front of a mic to test distortion levels, and declare one sub the winner/best/etc.

No need to look at this as some sort of competition. Im not looking to win or lose, Im looking to learn. Ive seen this debate touched on back and forth, and so far as Im concerned there is no clear cut answer put forth yet. Frankly, your logic, while 100% sound, is ignoring the issue Im trying to address. Im not speaking of distortion output only. Again, when people here compare subs, do they only compare raw distortion numbers, or do they talk about things like low end extension, transient response, etc. No the power input level will not affect transient response, but it will affect things like low end extension/authority. You will not convince me a sub with a stiff suspension like the xxx will have the low end authority its designed for while only running at 10 watts, or even 100 watts.

And yes I know what 10 watts is capable of, I have a friend who is a home audio tube amp freak. He misses no opportunity to show me how loud his 8wattx2 amplifier can get.

Again coming back to distortion. argh The xxx will have less distortion than any other RE sub at a given excursion, I agree. BUT, will the RE or SE have more excursion (and thus more air displacement) at a given -power level-.. say 100 watts, given the stiff suspension on the xxx? And if so, wont this also affect its low end extension, if nothing else? Yes, it will. Again, more to this discussion than distortion levels at a given excursion level.

I guess we just aren't as smart as you eh? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/tongue.gif.6130eb82179565f6db8d26d6001dcd24.gif More going on here than simple distortion output graphs warbleed.

Simple graphs? How about the undeniable consequences of physics? It's quite sufficent to support my points. No graphs needed.

Suspension stiffness is not the only factor at work there. Simply because the XXX has a stiffer suspension does NOT mean it will have inferior extension. You have to factor Mms and BL into that equation to have the whole picture.

The excursion would still be uniform, so it would NOT give the RE or SE better extension, just potentially more output across the driver's usable range.

If your example were true, we'd get superior extension with more power, and that is quite clearly false. Go and measure the relative low frequency output at different power levels. You will NOT get more relative low frequency output as power levels increase, and in fact, you'll eventually get LESS, because of compression.

This change will be far more prevelant in the RE, SE, and SX, because they have parabolic BL curves, and thus will begin compressing low frequency output long before the XXX.

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

Simple graphs? How about the undeniable consequences of physics? It's quite sufficent to support my points. No graphs needed.
Suspension stiffness is not the only factor at work there. Simply because the XXX has a stiffer suspension does NOT mean it will have inferior extension. You have to factor Mms and BL into that equation to have the whole picture.

The excursion would still be uniform, so it would NOT give the RE or SE better extension, just potentially more output across the driver's usable range.

If your example were true, we'd get superior extension with more power, and that is quite clearly false. Go and measure the relative low frequency output at different power levels. You will NOT get more relative low frequency output as power levels increase, and in fact, you'll eventually get LESS, because of compression.

This change will be far more prevelant in the RE, SE, and SX, because they have parabolic BL curves, and thus will begin compressing low frequency output long before the XXX.

So are you saying you can measure a driver's response curve at any power level, and it will be exactly the same at any other power level? Then why bother testing any high power driver at high power levels, why not just slap the closest 10 watt amp on it, measure away, and extrapolate the data. Ive never seen testing done this way, even when actual SPL output was ignored for the review.

And you can leave out the undisputable facts comments, we've been thru all that before, Im well aware you feel your facts are indisputable already. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif Those comments dont really reinforce your true arguement, only the fact that you feel you are right, which goes without saying.

So, going back to my example, when looking for a sub to put in your 10 watt home theatre, would you simply look at distortion levels (and price), ignoring power recommendations from the manufacturer?

Is it accurate to measure a high wattage sub like a W7 or H2 at 10 watts? Will this give the same response curve as it would at 1000 watts?

 

[chubby 10+ year member]

the last ten posts have been completely off topic.

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

the last ten posts have been completely off topic.

eleven

 

[HHawk 10+ year member]

Wow... I got more answers, then I could wish for... A big thanks for that. I wished this German authorized car hifi dealer for RE Audio / Adire Audio, would do this much "trouble" for me as well.

Anyways I just thought of something else. The voice coils are 1.9 DVC, instead of exactly 2.0 DVC, right?

That would mean, when making a combination of Series & Parallel, which would give me an end load of 1.9 ohm. Correct?

This would mean the RF 1501 BD does a little more then it does on 2 ohm. Meaning it will probably do more like 1800W RMS approx. Which comes down to 900W RMS a subwoofer... And thus, closing the gap in the needed "optimal" power range for the XXX subwoofer by a small margin...

I am starting to think, the subwoofers will perform okay on the given power I have available. Oh well, I can only wait and see... Unless the dealer comes up with a good solution, which is something I doubt...

PS: Sorry for my crappy English from time to time, it's not my native language...

 

[Warbleed 10+ year member]

Wow... I got more answers, then I could wish for... A big thanks for that. I wished this German authorized car hifi dealer for RE Audio / Adire Audio, would do this much "trouble" for me as well.
Anyways I just thought of something else. The voice coils are 1.9 DVC, instead of exactly 2.0 DVC, right?

That would mean, when making a combination of Series & Parallel, which would give me an end load of 1.9 ohm. Correct?

This would mean the RF 1501 BD does a little more then it does on 2 ohm. Meaning it will probably do more like 1800W RMS approx. Which comes down to 900W RMS a subwoofer... And thus, closing the gap in the needed "optimal" power range for the XXX subwoofer by a small margin...

I am starting to think, the subwoofers will perform okay on the given power I have available. Oh well, I can only wait and see... Unless the dealer comes up with a good solution, which is something I doubt...

PS: Sorry for my crappy English from time to time, it's not my native language...

The XXX will sound just fine with that power. Remember, the maximum possible gain from going from 750w to the rated 1600w RMS would be at BEST 3dB.

It's just an overhyped difference which isn't at all logical. Don't worry about it, the XXX will perform very well with that power.

 

[Warbleed 10+ year member]

So are you saying you can measure a driver's response curve at any power level, and it will be exactly the same at any other power level? Then why bother testing any high power driver at high power levels, why not just slap the closest 10 watt amp on it, measure away, and extrapolate the data. Ive never seen testing done this way, even when actual SPL output was ignored for the review.
And you can leave out the undisputable facts comments, we've been thru all that before, Im well aware you feel your facts are indisputable already. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif Those comments dont really reinforce your true arguement, only the fact that you feel you are right, which goes without saying.

So, going back to my example, when looking for a sub to put in your 10 watt home theatre, would you simply look at distortion levels (and price), ignoring power recommendations from the manufacturer?

Is it accurate to measure a high wattage sub like a W7 or H2 at 10 watts? Will this give the same response curve as it would at 1000 watts?

I never said the curves would be the SAME. I said the curves will be the same or WORSE, as power increases. Remember when I said this:

You will NOT get more relative low frequency output as power levels increase, and in fact, you'll eventually get LESS, because of compression

So the lowend will become more and more compressed as power levels (and consequently, excursion) increase.

They will NOT get better, and they can ONLY get worse. If you've ever bothered to examine the power response graphs for a driver, you'll notice they remain relatively similar, until the lowend begins to compress at higher power levels.

My point remains unchallenged: A driver can NEVER become more accurate with increased power, and in fact it will ALWAYS become LESS accurate with more power.

Now maybe you enjoy higher distortion, but that's about the only way you could claim that a driver sound better at higher power levels than it does at lower power levels...

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

I never said the curves would be the SAME. I said the curves will be the same or WORSE, as power increases. Remember when I said this:


So the lowend will become more and more compressed as power levels (and consequently, excursion) increase.

They will NOT get better, and they can ONLY get worse. If you've ever bothered to examine the power response graphs for a driver, you'll notice they remain relatively similar, until the lowend begins to compress at higher power levels.

My point remains unchallenged: A driver can NEVER become more accurate with increased power, and in fact it will ALWAYS become LESS accurate with more power.

Now maybe you enjoy higher distortion, but that's about the only way you could claim that a driver sound better at higher power levels than it does at lower power levels...

You always come back to the same thing, distortion, and ignore the question I pose to you. Let me try again.

Are you saying a sub designed and rated for 10 watts (for example) could not possibly sound as good as a Brahma, again running at 10 watts, due simply to the Brahma's better BL distortion performance?

Are you saying its fair to compare a sub rated at 1500 watts with a sub rated at 10 watts (or even 100), while playing at 10 (or 100) watts? You dont consider this test criteria as biased in favor of the sub actually designed for the power ranged used in the test?

Are you saying if you consider the 13W7 the best sub up to its rated 1500 watts (or whatever it is), that also must mean you consider it the best sub for any power range below that level also? So if someone came to you and said he had a relatively unlimited budget to buy the best sub he could for his application, but only had 50 watts to work with, you'd still recommend the 13W7? Or the Brahma? Or the XXX? Rather than a smaller and more efficient sub that's designed to actually operate in that power range? Again simply due to a better BL distortion performance at some given excursion? Makes no sense to me, and is where your arguement falls apart.

 

[80INCHES 5,000+ posts]

um 2 be honest i would never buy a w7 ...dont get me wrong its a good speaker but i hate the fact that they cost to much...and everyone jump on that bandwagon real quick......its to the point where funk master flex is reppin for them.....to me the xxx would kill the w7 in sq

as a matter of fact the re sx model is at the same level as the w7's sq and spl......do u guys agree?

80

 

[ksin291 10+ year member]

um 2 be honest i would never buy a w7 ...dont get me wrong its a good speaker but i hate the fact that they cost to much...and everyone jump on that bandwagon real quick......its to the point where funk master flex is reppin for them.....to me the xxx would kill the w7 in sqas a matter of fact the re sx model is at the same level as the w7's sq and spl......do u guys agree?

80

No we don't and that's not what audioholic was trying to address. He was addressing a completely seperate issue not recommending a w7.

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

That's downright idiotic. Adding 150w would make ZERO difference in terms of audible output. That's what you get for asking a sales guy a technical question.

Reading through the e-mail that was posted, I believe it was a typo and was supposed to have meant that he should get another 1501 and (to quote), "power each XXX with an amp of its own". If he simply meant to add another 150w to each driver, I dont' think he would have added the "and power each XXX with an amp of its own". Since the owner already has one 1501bd, if he would buy another then he would be able to run one to each sub: "I would recommend you get an additional 150[1] and power each XXX with an amp of its own" makes more sense this way, IMO.

Only problem with this is that those 1501's are only 2ohm stable, and the XXX's come in standard DVC 2ohm trim.....so buying another 1501 wouldn't actually benefit him any.

 

[Warbleed 10+ year member]

You always come back to the same thing, distortion, and ignore the question I pose to you. Let me try again.
Are you saying a sub designed and rated for 10 watts (for example) could not possibly sound as good as a Brahma, again running at 10 watts, due simply to the Brahma's better BL distortion performance?

Are you saying its fair to compare a sub rated at 1500 watts with a sub rated at 10 watts (or even 100), while playing at 10 (or 100) watts? You dont consider this test criteria as biased in favor of the sub actually designed for the power ranged used in the test?

Are you saying if you consider the 13W7 the best sub up to its rated 1500 watts (or whatever it is), that also must mean you consider it the best sub for any power range below that level also? So if someone came to you and said he had a relatively unlimited budget to buy the best sub he could for his application, but only had 50 watts to work with, you'd still recommend the 13W7? Or the Brahma? Or the XXX? Rather than a smaller and more efficient sub that's designed to actually operate in that power range? Again simply due to a better BL distortion performance at some given excursion? Makes no sense to me, and is where your arguement falls apart.

No, my argument does not fall apart. In terms of the accuracy of the driver, the Brahma, XXX, or W7 will still be superior. Like I said, at ANY power level.

Now would I say it would necessarily provide the most output for that power level? Not necessarily, but I never made that claim.

You have been attempting to claim that a driver could "sound better" with more power, you failed miserably at that, and now you are trying to claim that a driver which is near it's RMS will sound better than a driver way below it's RMS, but that too is an idiotic, irrational, and poorly reasoned claim.

It's fine if you don't realize your errors, but my arguments are flawless, and they are entirely based upon science, whereas yours are based upon nothing at all.

Remember, the claim being refuted was not "You might be happier with X driver because your power levels are are closer to the maximum of that driver than driver Y." The claim was "Use driver X because it will sound better than driver Y, because driver X is closer to xmax at the power level specified."

You cannot refute the latter claim, which is blatantly false, by attempting to prove the former claim. That is precisely what you are trying to do.

You have no chance of winning this. Give up.

 

[Warbleed 10+ year member]

Reading through the e-mail that was posted, I believe it was a typo and was supposed to have meant that he should get another 1501 and (to quote), "power each XXX with an amp of its own". If he simply meant to add another 150w to each driver, I dont' think he would have added the "and power each XXX with an amp of its own". Since the owner already has one 1501bd, if he would buy another then he would be able to run one to each sub: "I would recommend you get an additional 150[1] and power each XXX with an amp of its own" makes more sense this way, IMO.
Only problem with this is that those 1501's are only 2ohm stable, and the XXX's come in standard DVC 2ohm trim.....so buying another 1501 wouldn't actually benefit him any.

That would make more sense, but it still wouldn't prove either the claim audioholic knows he can't prove, nor would it prove the claim he's attempting to masquerade as the first.

Increasing power will NEVER result in better SQ. Ever. With any driver. Period. It is undeniable, indisputable fact.

The XXX will sound better than the RE, SE, or SX at ANY power level, be 15, 150, or 1500 watts. It doesn't matter, the XXX will be more accurate in all instances.

Now will you be fully utilizing the potential of the XXX? No, obviously not, but that wasn't what we were debating. I said from the get go that that was the ONLY reason you would ever recommend the lower level drivers, because your average user wants to use whatever driver they purchase to the fullest extent possible. Most would be annoyed if they purchased a driver with a 32mm xmax and it only moved 8mm with the power that they had available.

That does NOT change the fact that the XXX will ALWAYS sound better, regardless of power level. That has been my point all along, and it quite readily disproves the erroneous claim made by RE's support.