Received my 2x 12" RE XXX... But...

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

In fact, you could still easily have grossly disproportionate bass with that amount of power on those drivers.

Very good point. How often do people consider their front stage (and more specifically, midbass) when sizing their new subwoofer system? Very rarely, unfortunatley. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[Warbleed 10+ year member]

Very good point. How often do people consider their front stage (and more specifically, midbass) when sizing their new subwoofer system? Very rarely, unfortunatley. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

Honestly, I don't think that most people have ever even pondered what a balanced musical system sounds like. I see so many people driving around with the bass 20-30dB+ louder than the front stage. It just sounds stupid...

 

[HHawk 10+ year member]

Oops... I didn't mean to make peope angry. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/frown.gif.a3531fa0534503350665a1e957861287.gif

But thanks for information. And here is a little update, this dealer is trying to get me Brahma's if that doesn't work, I will have to wait about 2 weeks (or so he says) and he well get me the new line of Adire Audio. The new Brahma's or the new Tumults... Whatever my choice would be.

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

The new Brahma's or the new Tumults... Whatever my choice would be.

You would definitely want the new Tumult's. The Tumults will be their new top of the line sub (basically replacing the current Brahma) and the Brahma was dropped down a rung and apparently downgraded some (less excursion, smaller voice coil).

 

[HHawk 10+ year member]

Okay thanks squek9798 //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[HHawk 10+ year member]

Man I am really starting to feel scammed by this Authorized German dealer (for both Adire Audio as for RE Audio).

Especially after this honest answer from people at RE Audio, confirming I don't have sufficient power for the subwoofers:

"Sorry about the response time in returning this E-mail, the tech department usual gets a few hundred E-mails a day, making turn around time quite slow //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/frown.gif.a3531fa0534503350665a1e957861287.gif

As for your questions, 750W per sub is very minimal. I would recommend you get an additional 150 and power each XXX with an amp of its own. 750W will work, but you will not get the output or great SQ with that little power.

Depending on what type of output you are looking to get from it and how much room you have to work with, you could go ported or sealed enclosure. The sealed enclosure will have better SQ of course, and would need 1.25CF per driver. If you want a little more output, go ported with 2.5CF per driver tuned to 30-35Hz.

Again sorry about the delay, I hope that won't discourage you from using our product in the future. If you need any help with anything else Email us, or call us at 1-702-896-4823. Calling us would get you a faster response.

Thank you,

Ryan RE Sales"

Bah I am starting to wish I never had ordered anything from this German Authorized dealer (http://www.ls-wagner.de).

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

As for your questions, 750W per sub is very minimal. I would recommend you get an additional 150 and power each XXX with an amp of its own. 750W will work, but you will not get the output or great SQ with that little power.

Haven't we had this debate about power input not affecting SQ? With the XXX no less. There were a few people screaming power input does not affect SQ. Aparently the people at RE disagree.

 

[HHawk 10+ year member]

Well imho people who build these drivers, know it best. Correct me if I am wrong here. Cause otherwise why would they be building them...?

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

Well imho people who build these drivers, know it best. Correct me if I am wrong here. Cause otherwise why would they be building them...?

Oh I agree totally. I wasn't one of the people saying running a xxx at half its rated power wouldn't affect its SQ (of course it would).

If power input didn't affect SQ, RE would recommend that the XXX is their best sub for any power requirement up to 1600(+) watts (price factor aside). They don't, they will tell you when they feel the xxx (or another sub) is not the right choice due to lack of power, as they did here.

 

[Warbleed 10+ year member]

Oh I agree totally. I wasn't one of the people saying running a xxx at half its rated power wouldn't affect its SQ (of course it would).
If power input didn't affect SQ, RE would recommend that the XXX is their best sub for any power requirement up to 1600(+) watts (price factor aside). They don't, they will tell you when they feel the xxx (or another sub) is not the right choice due to lack of power, as they did here.

No it wouldn't. I don't care what some salesman said. It's a fact of science that can NOT be refuted. As you excurt a driver further, distortion increases. The amounts vary by topology, but it is ALWAYS the case.

If anyone thinks their sub will sound better with more power, they are a fool, period.

 

[Warbleed 10+ year member]

Man I am really starting to feel scammed by this Authorized German dealer (for both Adire Audio as for RE Audio).
Especially after this honest answer from people at RE Audio, confirming I don't have sufficient power for the subwoofers:

"Sorry about the response time in returning this E-mail, the tech department usual gets a few hundred E-mails a day, making turn around time quite slow //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/frown.gif.a3531fa0534503350665a1e957861287.gif

As for your questions, 750W per sub is very minimal. I would recommend you get an additional 150 and power each XXX with an amp of its own. 750W will work, but you will not get the output or great SQ with that little power.

Depending on what type of output you are looking to get from it and how much room you have to work with, you could go ported or sealed enclosure. The sealed enclosure will have better SQ of course, and would need 1.25CF per driver. If you want a little more output, go ported with 2.5CF per driver tuned to 30-35Hz.

Again sorry about the delay, I hope that won't discourage you from using our product in the future. If you need any help with anything else Email us, or call us at 1-702-896-4823. Calling us would get you a faster response.

Thank you,

Ryan RE Sales"

Bah I am starting to wish I never had ordered anything from this German Authorized dealer (www.ls-wagner.de).

That's downright idiotic. Adding 150w would make ZERO difference in terms of audible output. That's what you get for asking a sales guy a technical question.

Sorry, it is simply a foolish fallacy to think that increasing power could EVER result in lower distortion, assuming you aren't being a dumbass and clipping an amp.

 

[Hundreth 10+ year member]

good thread //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

Warbleed, you are equating better SQ strictly to less distortion. Yes distortion increases as coen excursion increases, but if power input had no affect on the SQ of a sub as you suggest, why would RE recommend a different sub for that power application, even when he already owns XXX's? If what you are saying is true, that power input does not affect the sub's SQ/ability to reproduce sound the way its designed, why would RE not simply recommend the XXX as its best SQ sub up to and including 1600 watts of power?

Any decent speaker designer will give you power ranges for their subs. Look at Jl's power chart for W7's, it does this. The power spec on a sub is not just a maximum like a speed limit. You rely on graphs and charts alot I know, but you cannot show me a chart or graph that says a sub/speaker will perform optimally no matter the power input (up to its maximum).

BTW, Ive called RE many times and Ive yet to speak to a 'salesman'. Any time I ask a technical question, its either met with a well educated response from someone clearly more than a salesman, or Im referred to someone there who then gives me this reponse. You simply blowing off the response of the designers of the sub as 'salesman BS' is not really addressing the issue.

 

[Warbleed 10+ year member]

Warbleed, you are equating better SQ strictly to less distortion. Yes distortion increases as coen excursion increases, but if power input had no affect on the SQ of a sub as you suggest, why would RE recommend a different sub for that power application, even when he already owns XXX's? If what you are saying is true, that power input does not affect the sub's SQ/ability to reproduce sound the way its designed, why would RE not simply recommend the XXX as its best SQ sub up to and including 1600 watts of power?
Any decent speaker designer will give you power ranges for their subs. Look at Jl's power chart for W7's, it does this. The power spec on a sub is not just a maximum like a speed limit. You rely on graphs and charts alot I know, but you cannot show me a chart or graph that says a sub/speaker will perform optimally no matter the power input (up to its maximum).

BTW, Ive called RE many times and Ive yet to speak to a 'salesman'. Any time I ask a technical question, its either met with a well educated response from someone clearly more than a salesman, or Im referred to someone there who then gives me this reponse. You simply blowing off the response of the designers of the sub as 'salesman BS' is not really addressing the issue.

The reason they probably don't recommend the XXX with those power levels is because it won't get anywhere near full excursion. They assume the average user is going to want to use whatever driver they purchase to as close to it's full output ability as possible. After all, they don't want someone to drop $400 on a woofer and them have them complain that it isn't moving as far as it can. They try and match available power to the powerhandling of the driver, and it has NOTHING to do with accuracy.

The XXX has lower distortion than every other driver that RE makes, at ALL power levels up until it hits xmax, where it too will have a sharp increase in distortion. Before that point however, it will have lower levels of distortion than all of their other drivers.

Seriously, I cannot fathom why ANYONE would ever think that more power could lead to more accurate reproduction, because it is a necessary FACT that more power = more distortion for any driver, and thus LESS accuracy, not more.

It's very simple, and it's indisputable fact.

All driver are most linear at rest, and their linearity discreases as excursion and power input increase. Now obviously the rate of increase in distortion is dependent upon a wide variety of factors, such as BL, Cms, and Le linearity, as well as the coil's ability to handle the amount of current passing through it. I challenge you to provide even ONE logical, scientifically sound explanation for how a driver could POSSIBLY be more accurate with more power.

You will fail, because it cannot.

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

The reason they probably don't recommend the XXX with those power levels is because it won't get anywhere near full excursion. They assume the average user is going to want to use whatever driver they purchase to as close to it's full output ability as possible.
Seriously, I cannot fathom why ANYONE would ever think that more power could lead to more accurate reproduction, because it is a necessary FACT that more power = more distortion for any driver, and thus LESS accuracy, not more.

It's very simple, and it's indisputable fact.

I challenge you to provide even ONE logical, scientifically sound explanation for how a driver could POSSIBLY be more accurate with more power.

You will fail, because it cannot.

As I said in the first sentence in my post you quoted, Im not disputing distortion rises, although with BL optimized drivers the rise is very slight until things start breaking down. You are arguing a point I never made. We are talking about more here than simply distortion levels, are we not? When subs are compared on this and other boards, do we just list distortion levels and move on? No we dont.

If power really means nothing in how a sub performs (besides simply in output), are you suggesting its fair to test a sub like the XXX, Brahma or W7 with say 10 watts of power, then extrapolate that data to assume this is the driver's sound characteristics? Of course you would not. Power input levels can and will affect the sub's performance beyond output, its at what point the lack of power would degrade performance noticeably to make a difference. I do agree with you however that 150 watts difference the RE guy said would not likely make any audible difference, and Im surprised to hear them say this.

Not getting full excursion out of the sub isn't just about not getting the full potential in terms of output, that excursion (or lack there of) does affect the sound of the sub. A subwoofer designed to run at 100 watts RMS can certainly sound 'better' than another sub, also playing at 100 watts, thats actually a superior sub but simply designed to run at 1000 watts or higher. Driver efficiency doesn't simply affect output, the 100 watt driver could likely deliver more output at lower octaves than the bigger/better sub, at 100 watts, again because the other sub isn't designed to move much at that power level, thereby sounding 'better' to the listener. This is why its not fair to compare two subs of radically different power levels, simply at the lower sub's power level, then try to compare the sound characteristics of each. This is at the heart of the RL-p vs XXX debate that got everyone's panties in a wad a couple months ago.

Are you suggesting excursion, or lack there of, does not affect a driver's sound characterisitcs/performance? Only output?