Poor SQ/Midbass from new Pioneer C720PRS Components

[Jeffdachef 5,000+ posts]

I have boosted the midbass frequencies on my parametric eq and they still seem lacking the midbass I was expecting. The inherently poor acoustical design of my doors did cross my mind. I tried to negate that with sealing/deadening though.
When you say they need "a lot of power" how exactly does that help at lower (or medium) volumes? The suggestion of feeding them more power seems like a bit of a pat answer.. I'm not looking to drive these extremely loud - they get plenty loud enough for me on 50w, and I haven't even clipped them. I'm not sure how "more power" is going to help the midbass of these drivers without having to push them to insane volumes. Am I thinking wrong here?

power doesnt always mean louder in the SQ world, it gives the drivers better ability to play all across the spectrum a lot better as well. It can bring out the midrange and midbass most definitely even at lower volumes. Its definitely not a pat answer, its a legit noticeable difference swapping amps not because of power but also the circuitry and overall design as well. This forum is not always about loud you know...

 

[Jeffdachef 5,000+ posts]

to be honest though when I ran my PPI class D, I thought my vehicle just had poor acoustics with semi weak anemic midbass. However swapping to a JL audio a/b amp, I had globs of midbass to the point where i had to tone it down instead of boosting. The PPI had more power, literally twice of how much the JL has and got much louder in the mids and highs but the JL was more smooth and detailed sounding and had powerful midbass, just didnt keep up with my substage in terms of loudness so i had to switch back. I'm keeping the JL 6 channel for when i get another car and do a full SQ build with that.

The PPI is also roughly 1/3 the size of the JL and costs a lot less.

Your clarion amp is tiny, barely has any circuitry as well as being a budget class amp. Could very well be the cause of the lack of midbass.

I've heard those pioneer comps at my local shop, they pump out loads of midbass and they were hooked up to a 12 channel reciever

 

[LosIsATool 5,000+ posts]

to be honest though when I ran my PPI class D, I thought my vehicle just had poor acoustics with semi weak anemic midbass. However swapping to a JL audio a/b amp, I had globs of midbass to the point where i had to tone it down instead of boosting. The PPI had more power, literally twice of how much the JL has and got much louder in the mids and highs but the JL was more smooth and detailed sounding and had powerful midbass, just didnt keep up with my substage in terms of loudness so i had to switch back. I'm keeping the JL 6 channel for when i get another car and do a full SQ build with that.
The PPI is also roughly 1/3 the size of the JL and costs a lot less.

Your clarion amp is tiny, barely has any circuitry as well as being a budget class amp. Could very well be the cause of the lack of midbass.

I've heard those pioneer comps at my local shop, they pump out loads of midbass and they were hooked up to a 12 channel reciever

Deffinelty can't blank statement for the PPI though. It's a cheap amp. It will preform like a cheap amp

 

[clanderson]

Thanks guys, I really appreciate the input! I wasn't aware that an amp could have so much affect on SQ. I'll definitely be shopping for a better amp now.

$300 a fair amount to budget for a decent 4ch amp?

 

[Jeffdachef 5,000+ posts]

Thanks guys, I really appreciate the input! I wasn't aware that an amp could have so much affect on SQ. I'll definitely be shopping for a better amp now.
$300 a fair amount to budget for a decent 4ch amp?

can actually get away with less if you buy used but that is a healthy budget.

 

[k5james 10+ year member]

Thanks guys, I really appreciate the input! I wasn't aware that an amp could have so much affect on SQ. I'll definitely be shopping for a better amp now.
$300 a fair amount to budget for a decent 4ch amp?

You should be able to do it on around half of that budget. Any of the China clone class Ds (NVX JAD/SS TN/PPI Phantom) will work. Either active or bridged passively and you should have plenty of clean power on tap.

I've seen a few JBL MS-A1004 Amps pop up recently. I love the one I have in my VW. That's a tough amp to beat if you can get it around $200-250.

 

[k5james 10+ year member]

Deffinelty can't blank statement for the PPI though. It's a cheap amp. It will preform like a cheap amp

That's a not totally true.

 

[LosIsATool 5,000+ posts]

That's a not totally true.

As many issues that are popping up now. Yes it is true. Typical buyout procedure. Start good to keep the fan base. Then go cheap

 

[k5james 10+ year member]

As many issues that are popping up now. Yes it is true. Typical buyout procedure. Start good to keep the fan base. Then go cheap

No it's not. A cheap amp will be as reliable as a cheap amp but it won't necessarily perform like a cheap amp. There are a lot of great values for amps that can be had.

The China clones are still solid buys, especially the NVX version IMHO.

 

[LosIsATool 5,000+ posts]

I never said its not a good buy. They do what they should do within the price range.

I think it's more of a thermal issue that kills power after some play time. Cheaper the parts the more they are effected by heat. And those get hot. That's where the money goes when you start paying more.

 

[Jeffdachef 5,000+ posts]

No it's not. A cheap amp will be as reliable as a cheap amp but it won't necessarily perform like a cheap amp. There are a lot of great values for amps that can be had.
The China clones are still solid buys, especially the NVX version IMHO.

still doesnt have proper circuitry or damping factor as better amps to actually sound amazing, they just do the job and get loud and sound moderately okay and get loud. The NVX only vary from the ppi version very slightly mainly in the heat sink, board is exactly identical and essentially the same amp just rebadged and price hiked just like how the rebaged game works in car audio over and over again. Difference between them and a proper higher end SQ amp with good damping factor and filtering will still be a big gap.

Not all amps are created equal, There's a reason why there's a higher class of amps we as consumers can purchase vs these budget amps yes NVX and PPI both fall into budget full range class Ds. Compare them to a Zed or Rockford or Digital Designs class Ds, you'll hear and absolute difference in the sound quality department.

 

[LosIsATool 5,000+ posts]

still doesnt have proper circuitry or damping factor as better amps to actually sound amazing, they just do the job and get loud and sound moderately okay and get loud. The NVX only vary from the ppi version very slightly mainly in the heat sink, board is exactly identical and essentially the same amp just rebadged and price hiked just like how the rebaged game works in car audio over and over again. Difference between them and a proper higher end SQ amp with good damping factor and filtering will still be a big gap.
Not all amps are created equal, There's a reason why there's a higher class of amps we as consumers can purchase vs these budget amps yes NVX and PPI both fall into budget full range class Ds. Compare them to a Zed or Rockford or Digital Designs class Ds, you'll hear and absolute difference in the sound quality department.

Damping factor is a mute point. The speaker plays a much larger role. A test Butler tubes did showed damping is not even measurable until the single digits. The dynamic head too plays a much larger role.

 

[k5james 10+ year member]

still doesnt have proper circuitry or damping factor as better amps to actually sound amazing, they just do the job and get loud and sound moderately okay and get loud. The NVX only vary from the ppi version very slightly mainly in the heat sink, board is exactly identical and essentially the same amp just rebadged and price hiked just like how the rebaged game works in car audio over and over again. Difference between them and a proper higher end SQ amp with good damping factor and filtering will still be a big gap.
Not all amps are created equal, There's a reason why there's a higher class of amps we as consumers can purchase vs these budget amps yes NVX and PPI both fall into budget full range class Ds. Compare them to a Zed or Rockford or Digital Designs class Ds, you'll hear and absolute difference in the sound quality department.

I know they're all the same that's why I called them clones. I like the NVX amps due to the better support you'd get from SE WHEN it breaks. Damping factor is marketing mumbo jumbo IMHO but that's a whole other can of worms. I fall into the "watts is watts" side of the argument and you obviously don't and that's cool but for somebody like the OP who's not looking for the bleeding edge of SQ the China clones will get the job done.

 

[Jeffdachef 5,000+ posts]

I know they're all the same that's why I called them clones. I like the NVX amps due to the better support you'd get from SE WHEN it breaks. Damping factor is marketing mumbo jumbo IMHO but that's a whole other can of worms. I fall into the "watts is watts" side of the argument and you obviously don't and that's cool but for somebody like the OP who's not looking for the bleeding edge of SQ the China clones will get the job done.

watts is definitely not watts and wattage is more marketing mumbo jumbo then actual build quality and amplifier design. Anyone who's had multiple different amps from low end to high end will easily hear the difference an power numbers dont matter anywhere as much when it comes to sound quality, detail from an amp. This is given that the install and tune is perfect with each. There's tiers of perfection you can always climb when your weakest link in the system is your 4 channel amp. Most average joes and spl guys have no idea and just recognize clean and clear so all they care about is watts and how loud they get. However when you actually have a affinity to sound quality, you'll notice every difference, its a curse. A curse that makes you spend countless hours swapping back and forth between amps in the same setup and being amazed that there's a big difference in the actual sound.

 

[LosIsATool 5,000+ posts]

I've never heard a difference. Even when critical listening. The only difference is power. Headroom.

But I've never had a ****** amp either.

I've noticed way more difference with tweeter positioning.