Pictures of some of my work

[LoudCrownVic 5,000+ posts]

I remember seeing that setup a couple years ago. AWESOME stuff, sucks so bad those thieves didn't get caught.

 

[ngallucci 10+ year member]

His point was that larger speakers can't play higher freqs and that is what I disagree with. That doesn't mean that an 18" midrange is practical in a car, and if you think I implied that then you are an idiot.
For the last time, the upper rolloff frequency for a driver is entirely dependant on the Le of the voicecoil. Nothing else comes into play. PERIOD. That doesn't mean that you can use the higher frequencies, but he usability is limited by cone breakup which will create ragged response peaks that are actually above the reference level, far from a rolloff. All the XXX series drivers (the pre '06 ones anyway) shared the same motor assembly and guess what, they had the exact same high end rolloff. Why? Because they all had the same Le coil. Did they have the same usable frequency range? Not necessarily, but only because of cone breakup creating out of band noise and distortion. Last I checked, SUBwoofers were meant to play SUB-bass and not midbass so the rolloff of an 18 is not really an issue. At the same time, an 8 with the same motor is going to have the same rolloff which would still make it unsuitable for midbass applications. You are not going to find a high excursion sub that will do well as a true midbass. You will find midwoofers that will provide good midbass and good midrange extension. These come in all sizes. The Speaker Works Grand National had 12" midranges in it IIRC.

For the final time, driver diameter does not have an effect on the upper frequency range of the driver in question. That is entirely a function of the voicecoil.

F=MA the basic equation of physics. D= 1/2*A*t^2 tells us how far an object will move in a given time with a constant acceleration. I'll don't feel like doing calc right now so the generalized form will work. Given two subs with the same motor, one being an 8 and the other a 12, the differences in the drivers can be reduced to a difference in mass for the moving assembly. The force will be the same for the same power input because the motors are the same. Using the first eq, we see that the lower mass will have the higher acceleration. Now you can plug the acceleration for each driver into the second eq and you will see that for a constant time (.01 sec for a half cycle of a 50hz sine wave) the lighter driver will move farther during the time period. But guess what the time in question is dictated by the frequency being fed to the driver. The smaller driver moves farther and faster regardless of the freq reaching a higher excursion with the same amount of power, but it still plays the same freq.

Now factor in Le. The effect that Le has is to reduce the force as the frequency gets higher. The voicecoil acts as a 1st order lowpass filter. Once the cutoff freq for the filter is reached, the coil begins to act as a variable resistor with the resistance proportional to the frequency. Since current and resistance are inversely proportional current will decrease with frequency increasing. Since current is proportional to force, force will decrease with an increase in frequency. Force is proportional to cone displacement so cone displacement decreases with an increase in frequency. The smaller driver will always move farther than the larger, but since the larger driver doesn't need to move as far to displace the same amount of air as the smaller driver because of a larger cone. If you normalize the response plots of the two drivers, the end result will be they roll off on the top end exactly the same.

Your generalization is worthless. For every 8 you show me that has better high freq response than a particular larger driver, I can show you a large woofer that has better high freq response than some 8s or even some 6s. Driver diameter dictates how much air a speaker moves for a given displacement. Larger drivers make better low frequency drivers because you need to move a lot of air to get good output at low freqencies and it is easy to get a low Fs with a larger driver as a matter of mass. Most dedicated high freq drivers have a small cone because it doesn't take a large coil to move the lighter cone and the smaller coil will have a lower Le and provides a higher rolloff freq on the top. The smaller driver can also be made realtively stiffer and thus less likely to demonstrate cone breakup at higher freqs. Tweeters typically use a dome shaped driver that is edge driven because a dome is the most inherently stiff shape for a given weight and the extremely light weight allows for a tiny coil with an extremely low Le.

Like you said - "The smaller driver can also be made realtively stiffer and thus less likely to demonstrate cone breakup at higher freqs. "

You can explain it any way you want to in physics land terms - or a perfect world but factors such as "cone breakup" are not put into account all the time in terms of explaining things by physics. Cool information man - i still ask ask the question why are the "high end" component systems 3 or 4 way with different size speakers - the best combination is that of different size - material - thickness - stiffness- design - to produce the best "flat" sound output

 

[ngallucci 10+ year member]

i am just going to say that ngallucci is my best friend and that that truly is his car... i have been in it like a million times and will tell you the history of his stereos.... he used to have 1 jl 12" w7 with a pg tantrum 1200.1(which is now mine) and then he got another w7 to have 2 12" w7. one day he called me and said he wanted to go big, so he ordered 2 more w7's and 1 8" w7, 3x 450/4, 4x 1000/1 and then all 5 batteries, one of which is in my car right now. he did have an alarm it was the top of the line python, im not sure what that model is..... but he was more grateful for his safety and the safety of his family that nothing bad happened except his stereo was stolen. the theives climbed into his gated yard, came right up to the house where his car was and went to town on it. the car was recently sold and he now has a 2003 honda civic with 1 12" w7(out of luck it was recovered by the police b/c a kid at a local high school bought it and the serial numbers matched ngallucci's) and this summer he will be making new doorpanels for his focal utopia set as well as he is buying 2 8" w7's to accompany the 12. that was his stereo, and if you guys are doubting it you are crazy. it was the jl audio featured vehicle for a little as you guys had mentioned. i was there when he laid his first layer of fiberglass on the 8" box by using a balloon to keep its shape. trust me that is his stereo........ he wouldnt spend all this time posting all these pics just to make up stuff......

Stevo is the man! he said my story - that is completly true.

 

[DBfan187 5,000+ posts]

http://www.adireaudio.com/Files/TechPapers/WooferSpeed.pdf

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/word.gif.64b12e39f936af3b4fff38a1c0bd0244.gif

 

[Savstyle 10+ year member]

nice work

 

[bdawson72 5,000+ posts]

His point was that larger speakers can't play higher freqs and that is what I disagree with. That doesn't mean that an 18" midrange is practical in a car, and if you think I implied that then you are an idiot.
For the last time, the upper rolloff frequency for a driver is entirely dependant on the Le of the voicecoil. Nothing else comes into play. PERIOD. That doesn't mean that you can use the higher frequencies, but he usability is limited by cone breakup which will create ragged response peaks that are actually above the reference level, far from a rolloff. All the XXX series drivers (the pre '06 ones anyway) shared the same motor assembly and guess what, they had the exact same high end rolloff. Why? Because they all had the same Le coil. Did they have the same usable frequency range? Not necessarily, but only because of cone breakup creating out of band noise and distortion. Last I checked, SUBwoofers were meant to play SUB-bass and not midbass so the rolloff of an 18 is not really an issue. At the same time, an 8 with the same motor is going to have the same rolloff which would still make it unsuitable for midbass applications. You are not going to find a high excursion sub that will do well as a true midbass. You will find midwoofers that will provide good midbass and good midrange extension. These come in all sizes. The Speaker Works Grand National had 12" midranges in it IIRC.

For the final time, driver diameter does not have an effect on the upper frequency range of the driver in question. That is entirely a function of the voicecoil.

F=MA the basic equation of physics. D= 1/2*A*t^2 tells us how far an object will move in a given time with a constant acceleration. I'll don't feel like doing calc right now so the generalized form will work. Given two subs with the same motor, one being an 8 and the other a 12, the differences in the drivers can be reduced to a difference in mass for the moving assembly. The force will be the same for the same power input because the motors are the same. Using the first eq, we see that the lower mass will have the higher acceleration. Now you can plug the acceleration for each driver into the second eq and you will see that for a constant time (.01 sec for a half cycle of a 50hz sine wave) the lighter driver will move farther during the time period. But guess what the time in question is dictated by the frequency being fed to the driver. The smaller driver moves farther and faster regardless of the freq reaching a higher excursion with the same amount of power, but it still plays the same freq.

Now factor in Le. The effect that Le has is to reduce the force as the frequency gets higher. The voicecoil acts as a 1st order lowpass filter. Once the cutoff freq for the filter is reached, the coil begins to act as a variable resistor with the resistance proportional to the frequency. Since current and resistance are inversely proportional current will decrease with frequency increasing. Since current is proportional to force, force will decrease with an increase in frequency. Force is proportional to cone displacement so cone displacement decreases with an increase in frequency. The smaller driver will always move farther than the larger, but since the larger driver doesn't need to move as far to displace the same amount of air as the smaller driver because of a larger cone. If you normalize the response plots of the two drivers, the end result will be they roll off on the top end exactly the same.

Your generalization is worthless. For every 8 you show me that has better high freq response than a particular larger driver, I can show you a large woofer that has better high freq response than some 8s or even some 6s. Driver diameter dictates how much air a speaker moves for a given displacement. Larger drivers make better low frequency drivers because you need to move a lot of air to get good output at low freqencies and it is easy to get a low Fs with a larger driver as a matter of mass. Most dedicated high freq drivers have a small cone because it doesn't take a large coil to move the lighter cone and the smaller coil will have a lower Le and provides a higher rolloff freq on the top. The smaller driver can also be made realtively stiffer and thus less likely to demonstrate cone breakup at higher freqs. Tweeters typically use a dome shaped driver that is edge driven because a dome is the most inherently stiff shape for a given weight and the extremely light weight allows for a tiny coil with an extremely low Le.

Wow u are a ****ing beast!.....I wish i knew that much or atleast i wish i had sum1 to teach me that much

 

[helotaxi 5,000+ posts]

Like you said - "The smaller driver can also be made realtively stiffer and thus less likely to demonstrate cone breakup at higher freqs. "
You can explain it any way you want to in physics land terms - or a perfect world but factors such as "cone breakup" are not put into account all the time in terms of explaining things by physics. Cool information man - i still ask ask the question why are the "high end" component systems 3 or 4 way with different size speakers - the best combination is that of different size - material - thickness - stiffness- design - to produce the best "flat" sound output

I've yet to see a "high-end" 4-way system, but anyway...

There are tons of different reasons that different companies do what they do. In a lot of cases with a 3-way system, the tweeter has a high resonance freq and requires a high crossover freq, the midbass is not able to play that high suitably, for myriad reasons (cone breakup, voice coil Le, beaming, etc...) and a smaller driver that is suited better to that particular frequency range is employed to fill the gap.

Because there are real world constraints such as cone breakup to consider when designing a driver, the goals of the design must be prioritized. If the highest priority is low bass output, the speaker is going to lack high frequency response. Size is irrelevant to this. There are 6.5" speakers that absolutely **** as midbases because they were designed as subwoofers. At the same time there are purpose built 8" automotive midbasses that need to be crossed over around 100Hz on the bottom end because they will bottom out if pushed any lower, but they don't move much and don't suffer from cone breakup when played into the 1kHz range. The reason that you don't see larger autosound drivers is because 1)they don't fit and 2) that level of efficiency is not needed for mids and highs in a car. Because larger midrange drivers don't fit in the front of the car, you don't see large drivers meant to have a broader freq range associated with autosound. It doesn't meant that smaller drivers are always better suited for mid-high freq applications just that those type drivers are not best suited for in-car use. Large drivers in a car are usually purpose built subs and true low frequency drivers are not going to be worth a **** as midbasses and totally garbage as midranges becuase of the focus of the design on low frequency use. The size of the cone has zero effect on that.

 

[ngallucci 10+ year member]

I've yet to see a "high-end" 4-way system, but anyway...
There are tons of different reasons that different companies do what they do. In a lot of cases with a 3-way system, the tweeter has a high resonance freq and requires a high crossover freq, the midbass is not able to play that high suitably, for myriad reasons (cone breakup, voice coil Le, beaming, etc...) and a smaller driver that is suited better to that particular frequency range is employed to fill the gap.

Because there are real world constraints such as cone breakup to consider when designing a driver, the goals of the design must be prioritized. If the highest priority is low bass output, the speaker is going to lack high frequency response. Size is irrelevant to this. There are 6.5" speakers that absolutely **** as midbases because they were designed as subwoofers. At the same time there are purpose built 8" automotive midbasses that need to be crossed over around 100Hz on the bottom end because they will bottom out if pushed any lower, but they don't move much and don't suffer from cone breakup when played into the 1kHz range. The reason that you don't see larger autosound drivers is because 1)they don't fit and 2) that level of efficiency is not needed for mids and highs in a car. Because larger midrange drivers don't fit in the front of the car, you don't see large drivers meant to have a broader freq range associated with autosound. It doesn't meant that smaller drivers are always better suited for mid-high freq applications just that those type drivers are not best suited for in-car use. Large drivers in a car are usually purpose built subs and true low frequency drivers are not going to be worth a **** as midbasses and totally garbage as midranges becuase of the focus of the design on low frequency use. The size of the cone has zero effect on that.

even home audio tweeters are small - check out wilson audio - $$$$$ and still big bass to small to smaller

so would you think that having 1 12'W7 and 2 8'W7's is pointless? i know its a sweet combination that sounds amazing together - is this your technical explanition of it as you stated above - or do you think its dumb?

 

[gatorgrizz27 10+ year member]

He's just saying that if you are using the 8w7's for midbass, why not just run midbass drivers like IDQ8's or XXX 8's? If your 12w7 is low passed at around 70Hz, then high pass the midbasses at around 60Hz or so, then low pass them where they blend with your mids. Of course then you wouldn't want your midbasses behind you, they would be better off in the kicks or doors. The point is midbass drivers will be better suited to playing midbass than small subwoofers will. Look at concert speakers, the tweeters are larger than most car mids and the mids are larger than most car subs, but they still play the same frequencies. Larger cone= more output, thats all. For example, look at this Orion subwoofer, its a 15, but its frequency response is 30Hz-2.5kHz. Then here is a Boston thats a 10, but its frequency response is 24Hz-350Hz.

http://www.woofersetc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=2419

http://www.woofersetc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=2520

That sucks about your old system though, its ridiculous how many a$$hole people are around now.

 

[ngallucci 10+ year member]

He's just saying that if you are using the 8w7's for midbass, why not just run midbass drivers like IDQ8's or XXX 8's? If your 12w7 is low passed at around 70Hz, then high pass the midbasses at around 60Hz or so, then low pass them where they blend with your mids. Of course then you wouldn't want your midbasses behind you, they would be better off in the kicks or doors. The point is midbass drivers will be better suited to playing midbass than small subwoofers will. Look at concert speakers, the tweeters are larger than most car mids and the mids are larger than most car subs, but they still play the same frequencies. Larger cone= more output, thats all. For example, look at this Orion subwoofer, its a 15, but its frequency response is 30Hz-2.5kHz. Then here is a Boston thats a 10, but its frequency response is 24Hz-350Hz.
http://www.woofersetc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=2419

http://www.woofersetc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=2520

That sucks about your old system though, its ridiculous how many a$$hole people are around now.

awesome man - now i understand what he was saying to me about that. I'll take a look at some midbass sets - thanks.

 

[BaseSteala112 10+ year member]

listen to this man, he's correct in every aspect.

Yes he is.

 

[troy_audi0 10+ year member]

Nice work man,

I think I delivered stuff to your shop from "TRC- The Right Conetion"

How the hell did you get the sub on the headliner with out it dipping?

Steel plates or what?

..

Sorry to hear about getting ripped off..

Peace Hope All gets better..

Troy_Audi0

 

[ngallucci 10+ year member]

Nice work man,I think I delivered stuff to your shop from "TRC- The Right Conetion"

How the hell did you get the sub on the headliner with out it dipping?

Steel plates or what?

..

Sorry to hear about getting ripped off..

Peace Hope All gets better..

Troy_Audi0

thanks man - sweet - i got the sub on theheadliner by something very under rated - clear silicone and two screws attached to the roof and the "I" shapped cross beam - = super stong