McIntosh Amps

[Papermaker85 5,000+ posts]

I'll bet money that I could install a lunar amp in that MCs place and you wouldn't hear the difference..

 

[Dirtrider4eva 10+ year member]

im sure if a zapco, or a nice zed was put in their instead of that pioneer, you couldnt hear a thing differently.

 

[LosIsATool 5,000+ posts]

for about 1/20 of the price.i think so...

motortrend rated the f430 the best drivers car, 2nd was the gtr.

price difference, iirc 300kISH? which would you pic..

If I had it the 430. If you got Mc money get the Mc.

 

[pro-rabbit 5,000+ posts]

I'll bet money that I could install a lunar amp in that MCs place and you wouldn't hear the difference..

Want to come to OKC? I have an install that we can swap out amps in(no external eq/crossovers just straight amplifier and what ever adjustments they may have or not) and I have enough amps to put that to the test if you wish.

We can even do it a show next year and let random people take part in the test and tally up the answers given.

 

[Papermaker85 5,000+ posts]

Want to come to OKC? I have an install that we can swap out amps in(no external eq/crossovers just straight amplifier and what ever adjustments they may have or not) and I have enough amps to put that to the test if you wish.
We can even do it a show next year and let random people take part in the test and tally up the answers given.

I was in Tulsa earlier this year..

I don't want to get into an argument unless your will to discusss topologies, I've used alot of amps and the highend zapco, lunar, arcs ideally sound extremely similar I really doubt you could choose them..

 

[perfecxionX 10+ year member]

This is just never going to end. If anyone would like to debate this more feel free to PM me at any time and i will be happy to continue this topic. As for the actual debate it is more of beating a dead horse then anything...

Why will you have the discussion in pms but not in the thread? You keep acting like you hold some powerful secretive knowledge that you simply cant share here. If you dont want to take the time to write it out simply post a link or quote where someone else has made the argument. The more credentialed the author (engineer, PhD), the more effort I'll put into reading it.

No matter the situation or our outcome any and all audio is subjective and any decisive answer will never be found because of this. No matter what. That is what keeps this debate alive. There has been proof for years showing why this test is not possible to beat because it is adjusted to ensure it can not be in every case as per the rules of the test. It is in black white in those very rules.

If there is "proof" outside of the vague argument you just made then simply link me to it.

Zaphaudio has a great page on subjectivity here:

Zaph|Audio

Subjectivity vs objectivity

subjectivity

noun: judgment based on individual personal impressions and feelings and opinions rather than external facts

objectivity

noun: judgment based on observable phenomena and uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices

For those who are not familiar with the usage of these terms in the audio world, subjectivity is an interpetation of performance using ears and music while objectivity is proof of performance using as many scientific measurements and methods as required to make a point.

This is going to be the part of this article that hurts some the most: In a situation where proven methodology and technology exists to do objective testing, people will side with subjectivity when 1)objectivity does not give them the answers they want to hear 2)they have an agenda or interest to protect, or 3)they are incapable of executing objective methods or reading objective results. Why do I never discuss this issue on the forums? Because there's no winning an argument with someone who is stubborn and uneducated, unaware, or uninformed. (ouch, but I can't think of any less harsh terms at the moment)

Don't let a proponent of subjectivity tell you that the right measurements don't exist to properly describe performance. That is a wrong statement, occasionally stated unknowingly but more often stated blatantly on purpose. The right measurements do exist and it's time for people to get with the program. The field of audio is very well known and has been for 50 years...

Beware the subjective speaker review. Anything subjective is likely full of vague useless verbage and is open to very different interpretation by anyone. It's also open to omissions because the review material will always be limited. And, as mentioned above, there's a good chance it's just not true...

Ears cannot be trusted

Those who don't measure, don't know. Period. They can pretend they know, but rest assured they don't. The human ear, as it is connected to the human brain, is not very smart and easily fooled...

 

[pro-rabbit 5,000+ posts]

I was in Tulsa earlier this year..I don't want to get into an argument unless your will to discusss topologies, I've used alot of amps and the highend zapco, lunar, arcs ideally sound extremely similar I really doubt you could choose them..

No argument required really. I'm talking a test with us just swapping amps and taking answers from those who are at the show willing to take part in the experiment. This way there is no bias by us what so ever. I'm interested to actually see the results. I thing the average person could tell the difference in a wide array of amps, but when it got down to a few very quality brands such as you suggested that they may not be able to distinguish what if anything had changed.

 

---------- Post added at 04:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:53 PM ----------

 

Why will you have the discussion in pms but not in the thread? You keep acting like you hold some powerful secretive knowledge that you simply cant share here. If you dont want to take the time to write it out simply post a link or quote where someone else has made the argument. The more credentialed the author (engineer, PhD), the more effort I'll put into reading it.



If there is "proof" outside of the vague argument you just made then simply link me to it.

Zaphaudio has a great page on subjectivity here:

Zaph|Audio

No, I have just lost interest in the topic of that test as it is flawed. Trying to coax me

into the same long and drawn out conversations by any means is simply wasting your energy.

I said PMs because I would get them as I have time. I have other things to do rather then post about a topic which was not even a part of this thread to begin with.

 

[ChevyRidinLow]

heres one reason why our amps are so expensive. (keep in mind i just work at mcintosh part time, im not a genius or anything but i do know a few things about why we can ask so much for equipment) for one thing if you have mcintosh you know it works 150% no matter what, if a product has the slightest thing wrong with it it must be destroyed because if any pieces got out into ciculation it could soil their name. my buddy works in the testing dept. i will get back to you with how insane the testing is. i know its ridiculous

 

[Shinju 10+ year member]

No argument required really. I'm talking a test with us just swapping amps and taking answers from those who are at the show willing to take part in the experiment. This way there is no bias by us what so ever. I'm interested to actually see the results. I thing the average person could tell the difference in a wide array of amps, but when it got down to a few very quality brands such as you suggested that they may not be able to distinguish what if anything had changed. 

---------- Post added at 04:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:53 PM ----------

 

No, I have just lost interest in the topic of that test as it is flawed. Trying to coax me

into the same long and drawn out conversations by any means is simply wasting your energy.

I said PMs because I would get them as I have time. I have other things to do rather then post about a topic which was not even a part of this thread to begin with.

If using your own install isn't bias then I do not know what is. Loads of miss information and personal missguided whobajoo going on. Its simple if you think you can tell the difference between amps and classes of amplifiers take your money and do Richard Clarks test and come home with his prize money.

 

[whitedragon551 5,000+ posts]

If using your own install isn't bias then I do not know what is. Loads of miss information and personal missguided whobajoo going on. Its simple if you think you can tell the difference between amps and classes of amplifiers take your money and do Richard Clarks test and come home with his prize money.

His test proves a watt is a watt and nothing more. Do Richard Clarks test using each amps crossovers, rather than an external crossover and its easily defeated. He set his requirements up in a fashion that wont allow anyone to tell the difference.

 

[LosIsATool 5,000+ posts]

I can tell the difference in my BC2K and ZX2500.. its very obvious

 

[thevic24 5,000+ posts]

If using your own install isn't bias then I do not know what is. Loads of miss information and personal missguided whobajoo going on. Its simple if you think you can tell the difference between amps and classes of amplifiers take your money and do Richard Clarks test and come home with his prize money.

This can also go for the group putting on the dbl blind testing......

Their point is to prove that amp A sounds no different than amp B so they have someone build an audio set up.....

How about let amp A build their all out set up and put it up against amp builder B's all out set up and then do the dbl blind testing?

Whoever they want to come out ahead, just set up the rest of the "test" to soot their needs. Speakers, cables, source gear, sound proofing, room and overall install.....Remember, install is 90% of ANY gear you use.

Example-

Bob Carver claimed that he could build an SS amp that sounded exactly like a valve/tube amp. Hence the TFM series amps.(Transfer Function Calibrated/ modified amps) With his "test" that he had set up at many shows, they did have the favor. On paper, that had the same specs, and even close specs on a scope.

I have 4 different TFM Carver amps and 5 different tube amps.......they are not even close in my real-world systems. My systems are set up with random components so none of them favor SS or tubes one way or the other. I can swap out amps to/from any room and you will 110% be able to tell the difference.

"Dbl blind test" prove nothing when it comes to real world use.

(Just go to the Bose store for a demo....take that crap to your home and then see.....)

 

[thevic24 5,000+ posts]

And remember, when it comes to sound quality, it's the first watt that is most important!

 

[thevic24 5,000+ posts]

Here is a small McIntosh tube powered room....

and a close up of the amps...

When that guy turns those amps on, the lights west of the Mississippi dim for a moment.

That and he dose not need the heat on either....

 

[Bettr n' Revrse 5,000+ posts]

heres one reason why our amps are so expensive. (keep in mind i just work at mcintosh part time, im not a genius or anything but i do know a few things about why we can ask so much for equipment) for one thing if you have mcintosh you know it works 150% no matter what, if a product has the slightest thing wrong with it it must be destroyed because if any pieces got out into ciculation it could soil their name. my buddy works in the testing dept. i will get back to you with how insane the testing is. i know its ridiculous

Interesting