Mag v4 Production complete

Ahem....

I don't recommend bringing up the client list. It is my understanding that the Harman work is not to be shared publicly. Could be wrong....hope I'm wrong.

Personally, I don't really like the split top plate approach for a variety of reasons. Aside from the increased reluctance, I think from a manufacturing standpoint you're leaving more room for error. With the older approach (ie. machining) your tolerances are as good as the machining is capable of, which is very tight tolerances indeed. This was actually a big advantage to their variable flux approach rather than the variable windings approach of split coil or LMS. Now with the split top plates, you're looking at the machining tolerances plus all assembly tolerances. In the case of a pressed top plate (the most affordable approach), you run the risk of poorly pressed top plates leading to larger gaps between the top plates and increasing reluctance.

I think in practice this newer approach has worked quite well for the XBL^2 designs (virtually all of which are doing so now); for most products, it seems to be a very good way to make quality products for less money more easily. Still, I prefer the older method.

And I'm still not completely convinced that copper in the rebate is the best approach. This is one thing no one has ever answered for me: a rebate in the middle of the pole piece would make inductance slightly lower at rest than at any other position (since there is less steel in the core). The only exception to this would be on the outstroke when windings start to pass the top of the pole. Adding a shorting ring in the region where inductance is already lower seems like you are opening yourself up to greater inductance variation (increased harmonic and intermodulation distortion). I propose this only as a theory, and not data, but would love to see Le(x) that shows otherwise.

The new Mag comes with an anodized copper shorting ring (can't remember how thick) on the pole. In my uneducated opinion, this is the best method of decreasing inductance as it does not increase variation. By comparison, single shorting rings decrease variation but don't do much for lowering inductance at all coil positions. The copper cap on the pole piece, for example, is one of the worst implementations of copper since you end up decreasing inductance at the position where it is already lowest (ie. fewest windings around the pole). However, the Mag also has the copper in the rebate.....I greatly look forward to seeing how this looks on the Klippel DA.

The Exodus Audio drivers use a slightly different approach that seems targeted at managing Le(x) and Le(i) variation (though they still use the split top plate). They call it AlCu...it's an aluminum shorting ring below the top plate on the ID of the magnets, and a copper shorting ring in the rebate. Still, I think it poses the same problem (in theory) that I mentioned above.

I really need to measure these drivers. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 
wow, is this the first thread where people on ca.com actually cared about TSP's.....
take it away and they suddenly want it, lol.
That is because the new Mag is a product that attracts the SQ guys on the forum. We are admittedly a small percentage around here. I'm sure if this concern was raised over at DIYMA, it would garner a larger reaction.

 
I mean, im a pretty intelligent guy have a degree in Computer Information Systems graduated *** Laude, but you'll are way over my head right now lol, I think im at a lecture session at the University. Woofer technology/Build quality 301 lmao as long as it sounds good and lasts long im cool

 
As a development side note to this conversation, Ive never understood why no one has ever used Inconel 7 18 for pole piece material - its super low magnetic signature and natural surface oxidation would reduce stray flux. It would however, be a bit pricey to machine.

Ok, continue bickering //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/popcorn.gif.32dd9e22fd77e77bc3c907062768fcd2.gif

 
I mean, im a pretty intelligent guy have a degree in Computer Information Systems graduated *** Laude, but you'll are way over my head right now lol, I would think im at a lecture session at the University. Woofer technology 301 lmao as long as it sounds good and lasts long im cool
Where are you working now if you don't mind me asking, I completed my business minor last semester and will graduate with my CIS degree in the spring, you can pm me if you want, I'd really like to discuss //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 
As a development side note to this conversation, Ive never understood why no one has ever used Inconel 7 18 for pole piece material - its super low magnetic signature and natural surface oxidation would reduce stray flux. It would however, be a bit pricey to machine.
Ok, continue bickering //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/popcorn.gif.32dd9e22fd77e77bc3c907062768fcd2.gif
That stuff suffers from work hardening, right? I'm not familiar with it...guess I'll have to google for a bit.

 
I mean, im a pretty intelligent guy have a degree in Computer Information Systems graduated *** Laude, but you'll are way over my head right now lol, I would think im at a lecture session at the University. Woofer technology 301 lmao as long as it sounds good and lasts long im cool
More then welcome to come to the lab at Virginia Tech...i'm working on some cool stuff over there in the vibrations and acoustics lab...

Most everything regarding a speaker is very simple when it is explained in person using a woofer/broken woofer as an example...

 
That stuff suffers from work hardening, right? I'm not familiar with it...guess I'll have to google for a bit.
During the machining process its characteristics do variate specifically by the process itself making it less brittle. Of course, it makes it more difficult to mill and more time consuming for an end product. Ive used a wire EDM to mill some before, and of course EDM milling is slow to being with, but you end up with a super hard, low magnetic signature millable alloy. Very popular within MRI scanners for their coil pack assemblies.

 
More then welcome to come to the lab at Virginia Tech...i'm working on some cool stuff over there in the vibrations and acoustics lab...
Most everything regarding a speaker is very simple when it is explained in person using a woofer/broken woofer as an example...
Funny thing Is i was joking initially but never knew that Tech had courses dealing with acoustics. Well i wouldn't mind but thats a 2 hour drive X gas prices =no go lol

 
Let's just cut to the chase. You're flat out wrong. Here's the data to show it...

Here's the solid top plate - all parts are steel, no air gap. We zoomed in the flux plot to range from 0 to 0.1T, so that you can see what's going on:

NoGapInTopPlate.png


This is the flux in the system with no gap. Look at the stray flux, around the motor.

Now look at what happens when we split that top plate with a standard 0.2mm

(7 mil) gap):

GapInTopPlate.png


Same everything, but we replaced that center "sliver" of the top plate with air, not steel. See any meaningful differences? If anything the stray field - OUTSIDE the motor - is reduced! Which means you're either wrong (no change), or really wrong (opposite of what you claim).

Now how about the flux in the gaps? Let's look at that:

FluxComparison.png


The flux is essentially the same. The difference is down at the limits -

you couldn't even measure that difference, and having the speaker 6" closer

to your steel bumper would have a bigger impact on the measured flux.

Bottom line, you're wrong. The facts don't back you up, the math doesn't

back you up, and the tools don't back you up. Either you're using the term

"stray flux" incorrectly, or you're just plain wrong in your understanding

of flux.

If you want, I can send you the FEMM model that I used to generate these

graphs, and you can check it yourself.

The main point that I think a lot of people are missing is that you (Nick Morgan) started a lot of the turmoil in this thread. Well...besides 02park, which is to be expected. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif (I'm secretly in love with you Chad!) You asked the question about split top plates, etc. You don't see me in any Fi threads stalking, pointing out any mistakes I think the designs have do you?

Now I seriously have to get back to packing up the van to move into my new house...

 
lol whatever dude //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

You can scream FEA to the death but you'll never be able to explain why those steel shavings form like they did....because your blinded by your own glory and the Wiggins train of thought. Did you ever even think that the same person doing your sub for you is the same one that gave a 1600 watt rating on a 32mm long 4 layer copper coil? Then couldn't figure out why they were all breaking? I guess the acronym DAF means nothing to you as well?

Your not an engineer, don't claim to be. I have no engineering degree and I don't claim to be an engineer. I caught you in a blatant line of nothing more than BS with an actual production unit of the same technology of your 'amazing' way of doing things and you didn't like the outcome.

I don't pick moot points or BS, i've got no reason to. I put my finger in your 'proof of pudding' because you decided to do a personal attack on me and my knowledge (Had you not done so I would have turned the other way, but You did.) and you didn't like it because I am correct, I have a woofer to prove that I am correct. I have the steel to show that I am correct. If you wish i can break the motor apart and take the pole out of it and show you that the same problem still lies inside of the gap where the coil is...as it does out side of the motor. This is due the plates being dished and not assembled properly. The flux field is not going to change through out the motor. If there is an air gap on the outside there is an air gap on the inside or even in the center of the motor because the plates are dished opposite of each other.

The steel shavings formed differently on the outside of two motors with the same technology, by your FEA analysis that is not correct, they should have formed the same exact way. On the XXX it is in a parabolic form, on the 8, it is not. Come now top flight engineering department, you've got to have an explanation for that! Or is it an anomaly of experience with the motors vs. what FEA may say? Did it possibly not take into account that every single one of those plates dish southwards when they are pressed out of the sheet of steel? If i recall it takes in to account and assumes that every single one of the plates is 100% flat and on the same plane with one another, not how they actually are after being produced.

You'll need to reflect back on this in the future...mark my words.

You can carry on now, thanks for proving my point that the actual production unit can and will differ from what your FEA output may say. It's appreciated as I do not have FEA on this laptop.

 
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