Keep the Perfect or W7

[Unregistered]

Right now I have an Infinity Perfect sub in my car, it sounds awesome and tight as hell, but I just recently acquired an amp that puts out about 600 RMS and I got to thinking, "Ya know, that would work d@mn good with a 10 inch JL W7, so I was just wondering if you thought this would be a good investment...Let me know if ya could. Thanks!

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[zane 10+ year member]

If it isnt broke dont fix it.....

Personally, the W7's are starting to become a dissapointment to me. For the mint of a price JL wants for them, they should be capable of a lot more. Thier SQ is pretty impressive, however, I have encountered quite a few frequency limitations with this woofer- which I believe is largely due to sacrificing cone area in favor of a mamoth surround. All in all, JL did a decent job designing the W7- however, when it comes down to it; I still believe that the Perfect has a lot more to offer.

take it easy,

-zane

 

[Phatillusion 5,000+ posts]

I agree, keep what you have. Why go out and buy a more expensive sub, when you really won't get a big return. The Perfects are great, awesome sq, with a decent amount of thump. If you have all this extra power why not buy another Perfect.

 

[audiolife 5,000+ posts]

its basic design negates mid bass and higher frequencies in the sub domain...i had a few coversations with other manufacters on this...they we not just talking out their butts either if you listen to a w-7 after listening to a world class set up or a great set up u will notice a lack of music but great great low tones...this i believe (through my talks) is because of the motor structure of the w7. higher frequencies you hear in the woofer are not even the music its the roll off of the lower frequencies. wanna do a little test for yourself listen to the drum tracks on the iasca disc and ask yourself if this sounds like a snare drum...close your eyes and really listen...

 

[zane 10+ year member]

Originally posted by audiolife its basic design negates mid bass and higher frequencies in the sub domain...i had a few coversations with other manufacters on this...they we not just talking out their butts either if you listen to a w-7 after listening to a world class set up or a great set up u will notice a lack of music but great great low tones...this i believe (through my talks) is because of the motor structure of the w7. higher frequencies you hear in the woofer are not even the music its the roll off of the lower frequencies. wanna do a little test for yourself listen to the drum tracks on the iasca disc and ask yourself if this sounds like a snare drum...close your eyes and really listen...

That is one thing that I noticed as well. I am curious as to why you attribute this to motor integrity as opposed to the cone design. I completely understand what you are saying, I would just like another take on this. It really seems to me that the roll off should not be occuring naturally as a design fault in a woofer designed primarily for SQ applications. Now, if what you are saying is that the motor assembly is too stiff to accurately reproduce the high frequency-thus resulting in a higher BL, Cms, and Rms measurement - that could very well be.

I personally think that the overall problem lies within the massive surround; as it limits the speakers frequency response. My question now becomes, if this woofer is primarily designed for SQ Applications- why does it need this large surround? Granted, other manufacturers also utilize large surrounds- yet they do not do this at the expense of cone area. IMO- JL made a boo boo there. If they could offer the W7's with a cone the actual size of the speaker 10", 12", 15"- respectively with a surround equally as wide as the current models- I believe that this would be a well needed improvement. The W7 has, however, been one of my more enjoyed listening experiences overall. - Still, even with thier quality of sound, I would not pay the prices they demand. The word inflation comes to mind on that matter....

Overall, My Alchemy's have still left a better impression upon me than the W7's have. I can also say this about the Infinity Perfect and the Soundstream Exacts.

Cant wait to see what next year will hold for JL though.....//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

take it easy,

-zane

 

[Unregistered]

Thanks a lot guys, I think I'm gonna add another Infinity Perfect to my system rather than getting the W7...you guys are kick@ss, Ya saved me from possibly making a big mistake...

Keep it up!

 

[audiolife 5,000+ posts]

well beleive it or not its gapping of the voice coil (all three people i talked too said it reverberates "noise") the throw in the woofer makes it this way. i might be a little wrong in how i am describing this but then again this is a "new" problem in a high throw woofer as this product and others following it are opening new grounds in woofer performance...they also open new problems. as to the cone being the culprit...i am sure it is to some extent. i talked to others they didnt go into great enough detail for me to picture the whole problem again i am not taking away anything from the w-7 i think its breaking new ground in advancement but with anything new in speakers if it has problems..it will have a gap in performance but at that price..i would want perfection ask me it needs strong mid bass or servo control.

 

[zane 10+ year member]

Originally posted by audiolife well beleive it or not its gapping of the voice coil (all three people i talked too said it reverberates "noise") the throw in the woofer makes it this way. i might be a little wrong in how i am describing this but then again this is a "new" problem in a high throw woofer as this product and others following it are opening new grounds in woofer performance...they also open new problems. as to the cone being the culprit...i am sure it is to some extent. i talked to others they didnt go into great enough detail for me to picture the whole problem again i am not taking away anything from the w-7 i think its breaking new ground in advancement but with anything new in speakers if it has problems..it will have a gap in performance but at that price..i would want perfection ask me it needs strong mid bass or servo control.

Now you've gone and done it.......

We gotta take one apart! //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

The 12W7 boasts a 3" coil with a .5" gap - which in a lot of areas is not the best for SQ applications as it pushes the woofer away from a flat response. However, with a Short gap/Long coil- (SGLC) it also has a better BL Linearity by producing a more "square" profile in BL terms; up to the speakers limit. This is beneficial to the driver by allowing less distortion by means of the BL Linearity.

JL Boasts this woofer as an SQ woofer with SPL, and the above basically supports that theory. However, this could also be a hinderance as the W7 is considerably overhung, making its coil almost too long for the modest gap it ulilizes. This should not, however, effect overall frequency response. This is why I question the coil being totally at fault. This is likely a combination of several things within its design, which as you pointed out, is probably the case with the new design.

Servo control ehh?

That would be interesting.........

take it easy,

-zane

 

[audiolife 5,000+ posts]

yeah servos hehe we did it to a camaro hatch before was pretty cool no music but was sota neat makin 142 db without a speaker in traditional sense

 

[Unregistered]

Originally posted by zane If it isnt broke dont fix it.....

 

Personally, the W7's are starting to become a dissapointment to me. For the mint of a price JL wants for them, they should be capable of a lot more. Thier SQ is pretty impressive, however, I have encountered quite a few frequency limitations with this woofer- which I believe is largely due to sacrificing cone area in favor of a mamoth surround. All in all, JL did a decent job designing the W7- however, when it comes down to it; I still believe that the Perfect has a lot more to offer.

 

take it easy,

 

-zane

Zane have you installed a w7 and seen how they got around the problem of cone area. no cone area is lost they just pushed the surround to the outer rim. the surround has to be removed before you are able to install it because the surround goes over the screws. having compared the W7 with the perfects the W7 is alot better, but the perfects are more practical. the W7 is way to big and i couldn't fit the ported box that would be needed in my car, But the W7 is a close as your going to get to the perfect speaker. alot more so than the perfects, but i am still going to keep my perfects too.

 

[zane 10+ year member]

Originally posted by Unregistered  

Zane have you installed a w7 and seen how they got around the problem of cone area. no cone area is lost they just pushed the surround to the outer rim. the surround has to be removed before you are able to install it because the surround goes over the screws. having compared the W7 with the perfects the W7 is alot better, but the perfects are more practical. the W7 is way to big and i couldn't fit the ported box that would be needed in my car, But the W7 is a close as your going to get to the perfect speaker. alot more so than the perfects, but i am still going to keep my perfects too.

I see no possible way of "getting" arround the cone area......

They have sacrficed it for the woofers surround. The Frame of the 12W7 itself is only 12.5" Meaning .5" for surround only. Realisticly, that is improbable with the 29.2mm of Xmax they claim. (on a personal note, I have not measured anywhere close to that Xmax in a real world install. My measurements one way were closer to 10mm) Now if the cone itself was actually 12" then the cone area gains they brag about would hold true.

This lack in cone area along with the general VC length and spacing is likely why many are noticing a lack in upper midbass response, and also why at lower frequencies the response seems mildly distorted. This could be due to the unusually high Fs of 27.23Hz. Even at 45Hz, some distortion is still audible at close listening distance.

If this sub was all JL cracked it up to be, then I would easily say it is a "perfect " woofer, however, Infinity's Perfects do not illustrate many of the flaws found in the W7. They have thier areas of concern too, however, not near as present as those of the W7.

Allthough, overall, I was pretty impressed with the W7, the Perfect would still be my first choice between the two based on the points discussed in this entire thread.

Even output characteristics show the Infinity has the advantage..

http://photos.msn.com/imageserver/image.aspx?Image=*EtEZjHm6cpqY2qTksA!TOpplpP5axN9vymT2wKpgkyrCYkIV!4bhAW0hngLLMRHsHX274!fj0a1gYWYQZp!paB06q0VxzC!Tq1DKxRQL3m7h2U*bVzQ*g5eHhcfUdnf

food for thought anyway,

take it easy,

-zane

 

[zane 10+ year member]

Ok for some stupid arse reason- none of the vB codes are working anymore.

Copy and Paste the above link into your address bar and you gan see the difference.

take it easy,

-zane

 

[audiolife 5,000+ posts]

and @ $500 bucks each at least i would venture to say you can get great performance for less.....as noted before not always the guy with the "best" stuff wins its how you use it

 

[zane 10+ year member]

That alone is quite a good determining factor........

Agreed.

take it easy,

-zane

 

[revoh 10+ year member]

I see that you, zane, feel that the infinity perfects are superior to the W7's, but what do you think about the Eclipse either aluminum or titanium series? I cannot decide between the two. Any thoughts or experiences you've had with them are appreciated! Thanks...