Imagration Reform

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

An officer could easily walk up to a group of hispanics standing outside a store and say they're loitering and ask for documentation. If there was just some white males standing in the same spot they might just ask them to leave. That is reality. If you don't think so then maybe you've just never seen stuff like this happen but I've seen it so there's pretty much nothing you can tell me to convince me it doesn't happen.

I guess if you live in an area rife with dirty cops bent on racist abuses of their power, the lesson learned here is, dont be a loitering illegal immigrant. The lesson I learned many years ago was, if you are a young guy in a camaro late at night, expect expectations.

God forbid illegal aliens live in fear of being caught. As for the rest of us, if pulling out your green card is that deplorable, Im sure your native country would let you back in. But the truth is, even with such a disgusting breech of privacy as having to produce your identification to law officers upon upon request, our system of justice is still more lenient towards immigrants than the country you fled. So your argument that we, the tax payers, should take it in the *** so the illegal immigrants wont have to, doesn't fly with me. And your fantasy scenario of a dirty cop is possible with any person, any ***, any race. Ima white male and Ive been profiled. Guess what? I got over it. Like going through security at the airport, sometimes we have to forfeit a certain amount of our privacy in order to maintain order against those who would otherwise commit crimes.

Im long past thinking I would convince you of anything, your mind is shut out to any new thoughts, no matter what facts are presented to you. You wont let anything in that would disturb your view of how the world should work. Hope that works out for you. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[LazyRider 10+ year member]

I guess if you live in an area rife with dirty cops bent on racist abuses of their power, the lesson learned here is, dont be a loitering illegal immigrant. The lesson I learned many years ago was, if you are a young guy in a camaro late at night, expect expectations.
God forbid illegal aliens live in fear of being caught. As for the rest of us, if pulling out your green card is that deplorable, Im sure your native country would let you back in. But the truth is, even with such a disgusting breech of privacy as having to produce your identification to law officers upon upon request, our system of justice is still more lenient towards immigrants than the country you fled. So your argument that we, the tax payers, should take it in the *** so the illegal immigrants wont have to, doesn't fly with me. And your fantasy scenario of a dirty cop is possible with any person, any ***, any race. Ima white male and Ive been profiled. Guess what? I got over it. Like going through security at the airport, sometimes we have to forfeit a certain amount of our privacy in order to maintain order against those who would otherwise commit crimes.

Im long past thinking I would convince you of anything, your mind is shut out to any new thoughts, no matter what facts are presented to you. You wont let anything in that would disturb your view of how the world should work. Hope that works out for you. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

And you have been open minded how? What new thoughts am I shutting down? You want me to believe that racial profiling is perfectly fine? The main things I've stated is that this law could open the door for possible racial profiling, and that there should be a better way of dealing with the illegals already here to make it somewhat more possible for them to become legal instead of deporting them all because not all of them are bad people.

 

[natisfynest 10+ year member]

Dude there was "profiling" before this law. Its not like this law is all of a sudden gonna make cops go after people. Dirty cops were profiling before this law and will after this law.

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

And you have been open minded how? What new thoughts am I shutting down? You want me to believe that racial profiling is perfectly fine? The main things I've stated is that this law could open the door for possible racial profiling, and that there should be a better way of dealing with the illegals already here to make it somewhat more possible for them to become legal instead of deporting them all because not all of them are bad people.

Good people break the law sometimes. Guess what? Even 'good people' are responsible for their actions. Responsibility means deportation with the possibility of re-entry upon completion of legal application for residency. And that is being lenient. What you want is to find excuses to allow them to get away with their illegal act(s) without consequence. The law is clear, and so are the consequences. If we need to reform immigration procedures, fine. But amnesty simply because they got away with it this long is simply morally wrong and unfair to everyone else. You think you are hiding behind the morally right notion we should help them. You are misguided, we gave them an opportunity for help when we wrote our laws that gave them a chance to immigrate here legally. They chose to quick and cheap path of ignoring our law. That's not a good first impression for those 'good people'.

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

And yes, I have an open mind. I want to help people as much as the next person. But I want to help those who come to us respectfully, lawfully. Not the ones who sneak in secretly and assume/demand/expect/acquire our help without our consent.

 

[LazyRider 10+ year member]

Good people break the law sometimes. Guess what? Even 'good people' are responsible for their actions. Responsibility means deportation with the possibility of re-entry upon completion of legal application for residency. And that is being lenient. What you want is to find excuses to allow them to get away with their illegal act(s) without consequence. The law is clear, and so are the consequences. If we need to reform immigration procedures, fine. But amnesty simply because they got away with it this long is simply morally wrong and unfair to everyone else. You think you are hiding behind the morally right notion we should help them. You are misguided, we gave them an opportunity for help when we wrote our laws that gave them a chance to immigrate here legally. They chose to quick and cheap path of ignoring our law. That's not a good first impression for those 'good people'.

This is what needs to happen. But I never once said that they should just all be granted automatic citizenship and just forget about all the time they didn't pay taxes btw. If they have been here a while and have established lives I believe they should be given a chance to make things right. Personally I think they should just be fined or pay backed taxes or something.

And plain and simple illegals being here just isn't a big issue to me because like I said there are sooooo many other larger issues out there to be addressed. And the illegals don't bother me. I really don't even care that they don't pay taxes because the government just wastes most of your tax money anyways. It bothers you, I get it. If you have to pay taxes then they should too right? I can understand why you would feel that way but I just don't feel the same. Government wastes soooooooo much money that the illegals tax money would just be like a pebble in the ocean almost.

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

This is what needs to happen. But I never once said that they should just all be granted automatic citizenship and just forget about all the time they didn't pay taxes btw. If they have been here a while and have established lives I believe they should be given a chance to make things right. Personally I think they should just be fined or pay backed taxes or something.
And plain and simple illegals being here just isn't a big issue to me because like I said there are sooooo many other larger issues out there to be addressed. And the illegals don't bother me. I really don't even care that they don't pay taxes because the government just wastes most of your tax money anyways. It bothers you, I get it. If you have to pay taxes then they should too right? I can understand why you would feel that way but I just don't feel the same. Government wastes soooooooo much money that the illegals tax money would just be like a pebble in the ocean almost.

Being granted citizenship is more than paying the govt some money and receiving a green card. There is a process that should be followed, and these people should not be allowed to bypass that system simply because they made it through the fence. How long ago they made it through the fence is irrelevant. If anything, the ones who have been here longer have evaded the law (and taxes) longer than the others, and if the consequences are not linear, they should receive the stiffest consequence.

So no, merely slapping them on the wrist with a fine and then granting them citizenship is not the right way. Anything other than deporting them and giving them the opportunity to submit for legal residency from their native country is granting them a cut in line. They should not be rewarded for getting away with breaking the law.

If your idea happened, what would you do with all the illegals who would still stay hidden? Say tomorrow you passed your law that allowed them to pay a fine and stay. What happens to the next guy pulled over for speeding who didnt step forward and admit he was an illegal alien? Would you THEN deport them? Or would you give them yet more chances to step forward? We both know you and the bleeding heart liberals would give them every chance they wanted. The best of both worlds, stay illegal and avoid taxes if they want, or chose your fast-track to residency plan. Gosh your way sure is strict! //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/uhoh.gif.c07307dd22ee7e63e22fc8e9c614d1fd.gif

Its exactly things like this, coddling the hispanic votes for personal gain, that makes our government so inefficient financially and logistically. I have not suggested this is the only thing we need to fix in our government and/or its policies, but this is certainly a good start. Your idea is to not fix it because we need to fix other things too. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crazy.gif.c13912c32de98515d3142759a824dae7.gif Ignoring this problem 20 years ago got us to where we are today. Ignoring it another 20 years will get the illegals and their supporters exactly what they want, too much power to oppose politically. Yes, lets all just ignore it for a while longer, we cant possibly think about this issue at the same time as the other issues we have going on today. We need to wait for that decade we have coming up where we have no other crisis to deal with simultaneously.

 

[LazyRider 10+ year member]

If we give them a chance to pay a fine and some still don't come forward then yea deport them. You have to cut your losses somehow. At least if they come forward they are paying something which is what you want. How do you plan on going about deporting them all? They're not going to come forward. If they are aloud to come forward pay a fine and start paying taxes and garnish their paychecks at least they're paying something.

 

[The HACKER 10+ year member]

Many of your points have already been addressed here if you read the thread.

For example, its a fallacy that illegals are willing to do jobs Americans wont. Their ability to work for less money and still receive the same take-home pay due to not paying taxes/soc security means they can drive wages down in a job field artificially, until the job becomes not economically viable for legal tax-paying workers.

Earlier in the thread someone referred to field worker 'shit jobs'. They are only seen as shit jobs because they pay so low. If farmers paid $25 an hour plus medical, plus benefits, plus profit sharing... people would look past working in the dirt and there'd be waiting lists to become one. Somewhere between that extreme, and the one where legal residents expecting at least legal minimum wage for the job are expecting too much, is where it would be if the illegals were removed. Yes, the price of certain produce would go up somewhat (not significantly imo), but think about it... an entire job field opened back up for American people to work in, with wages established with a supply and demand system that means the wages will be competitive with other job fields in its range. No, not many people would aspire to working in fields as their ideal job, but not many people aspire to be mechanics or walmart managers or truck drivers, but legal tax-paying citizens do those jobs every day to earn a living a build careers. Just because the job fields we'd be opening back up to American workers isn't at the top of the wages food-chain doesn't mean they would help the economy as a whole, and the workers in those fields individually. Otherwise for you nay sayers, come up with a way none of us have to ever be mechanics either, or DMV clerks, or gas station managers, or any other job we didn't grow up hoping to be some day.

At this point, most of what I said here wasnt aimed at you carlos, take no offense. I started rambling. lol I appreciate your perspective on this topic.

On this Bold part, those people that work those tractors, pickers, harvesters and i forget what the other ones are called, neways they get paid in the 20.00's an hour easy. And the inside of these machines for the most part are all air conditioned some with stereos, some with coolers, etc. And as far as the jobs it would open up isnt much at all. I have friends who work in that field of work, and nowadays with modern machinery it takes a lot less people then it used to.

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

If we give them a chance to pay a fine and some still don't come forward then yea deport them. You have to cut your losses somehow. At least if they come forward they are paying something which is what you want. How do you plan on going about deporting them all? They're not going to come forward. If they are aloud to come forward pay a fine and start paying taxes and garnish their paychecks at least they're paying something.

You question how we'd deport them all, but suggest no way to make them all come forward and pay your fine. I never suggested we'd find them all, but not finding them all is a far cry from what we have now: not even looking for them.

No, a simple fine is not what i want. Ive made that clear several times now.

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

On this Bold part, those people that work those tractors, pickers, harvesters and i forget what the other ones are called, neways they get paid in the 20.00's an hour easy. And the inside of these machines for the most part are all air conditioned some with stereos, some with coolers, etc. And as far as the jobs it would open up isnt much at all. I have friends who work in that field of work, and nowadays with modern machinery it takes a lot less people then it used to.

Its true field work is getting more automated all the time, but some of still isnt (or we wouldnt be discussing the farmers hiring illegals) nor is that the only example of job markets the illegal alien population has invaded.

 

[LazyRider 10+ year member]

You question how we'd deport them all, but suggest no way to make them all come forward and pay your fine. I never suggested we'd find them all, but not finding them all is a far cry from what we have now: not even looking for them.
No, a simple fine is not what i want. Ive made that clear several times now.

If they have a choice of paying a fine and filing paperwork to get citizenship i think a lot of them would go for it. At least then they can start paying taxes which is one of the things you say is an issue. Would you rather them just stay here illegally and not pay taxes? You haven't listed one realistic idea of what to do to solve the issue.

What exactly is your plan for solving the issue?

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

If they have a choice of paying a fine and filing paperwork to get citizenship i think a lot of them would go for it. At least then they can start paying taxes which is one of the things you say is an issue. Would you rather them just stay here illegally and not pay taxes? You haven't listed one realistic idea of what to do to solve the issue. What exactly is your plan for solving the issue?

Actively seek them out and deport them. What would be their incentive to step forward and start paying taxes and a fine? We'd still have to seek them out, and your plan would lead to the same inevitability> deportation.

I wont agree 6the right plan is to reward them for breaking our laws. Its being lenient enough that we would allow them to try and re-access this country legally.

 

[LazyRider 10+ year member]

Actively seek them out and deport them. What would be their incentive to step forward and start paying taxes and a fine? We'd still have to seek them out, and your plan would lead to the same inevitability> deportation.
I wont agree 6the right plan is to reward them for breaking our laws. Its being lenient enough that we would allow them to try and re-access this country legally.

The incentive to step forward and pay their fine and taxes is that they won't have to live in fear of being deported. How is making them pay a fine and pay taxes a reward? Let them do some jail time too if it makes you happy.

How are you going to track them down by the way?

 

[Carnivorous18 10+ year member]

Honestly id love to see some of these people sit in the shoes of a mexican and be racially profiled every day of their life. It usually aint just one occurrence then it happens a while down. And I wana touch back on what audioholic mentioned earlier about having to show your id when a cop pulls you over. Like lazyrider said the only basis that a cop has to ask for a green card is to look at their skin and see that its brown. Its totally fine that they ask for some sort of id, its just the way it is. But to ask for a green card because your brown and thats suspicious, im sorry that seems racist.