Imagration Reform

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

if its ok for the mexicans to be here illegally, can i have all the time and money back that me and my wife spent so that she could be here?.Guess she's just not the right type of brown,or maybe because she can speak english, hmmmmm. And yes she had to carry her card with her at all times and didnt have a problem with it, so why do they??

Because if we make Mexicans do it, we are selfish racists. Didn't anyone tell you?
I personally apologize for the lack of understanding and empathy some Americans show you and your wife's efforts to be here legally. I hold your wife in high respect for what she set to do, and what she accomplished. I love that we, the United States, lets in immigrants from virtually anywhere. I just want us to be sure we make everyone come here by following the rules, like your wife did.

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

Tens of millions is the number of people here illegally. That doesn't mean they can't speak english. You're talking about a very small percentage of people here. And then you have to think about how many places have the option to speak to a spanish speaking representative. The issue that you're complaining about is so minuscule that when you look at the big picture it's darn near irrelevant. You're talking about like less than 5% of the entire population and it doesn't even affect you. It allows businesses to reach a larger demographic and makes things easier for American citizens. Or did you forget about the legal citizens it helps?

So now we are starting to see road signs in spanish, have to dial 1 for english, and in many places in this country have to ask for an English employee top take our order.... for 5% of the population? You really shift your argument around depending on which way the wind is blowing. When we talk about Spanish becoming a secondary language here, you cite its because such a large portion of our population speaks spanish (and I guess if they speak both spanish and english, we are pricks for insisting they use english on a business transaction with a major company). But when the conversation shifts, you pull this 5% statistic completely out of your *** and start telling us how small the number of non-english speaking people really is. Awesome, 5%, so lets change all our signs back, get rid of press 1 for English, and demand you can speak english to be hired for a job that involves dealing with the public. Oh wait, you wont agree to that, instead you'll shift your argument back to their are so many spanish speakers we owe it to them to alter our society to accomodate them instead. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

Also, most illegals are not working for below minimum wage. I don't know one that is, and most make in the $8-12 range working general "non-thinking" kind of jobs in the construction field. Also keep in mind that you have the head guys behind all of these framing/decking/etc. crews making well into the 6 figures, not paying a cent for taxes, and buying a 500 acre ranch down in Mexico and at the same time they have multiple $40k+ vehicles.

We have just been talking about 'below minimum wage' as an example to show an illegal alien can afford to work for less money than a legal worker can, even to the point of dipping below 'minimum wage' and still earn a livable income. Yes, there are plenty of skilled and specialized illegals here making good money. Their emnployer simply would have had to pay an American even more money in the form of taxes, soc security, benefits, health insurance, etc.

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

Tens of millions is the number of people here illegally. That doesn't mean they can't speak english. You're talking about a very small percentage of people here. And then you have to think about how many places have the option to speak to a spanish speaking representative. The issue that you're complaining about is so minuscule that when you look at the big picture it's darn near irrelevant. You're talking about like less than 5% of the entire population and it doesn't even affect you. It allows businesses to reach a larger demographic and makes things easier for American citizens. Or did you forget about the legal citizens it helps?

One of the criteria of applying for citizenship is proving you can read, write and speak basic English. So I really have no idea what fantasy population of people you are referring to.

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

They don't care about the businesses that hire the illegals they only care about the illegals. Nobody is putting a gun to business owners heads and telling them to hire illegals. People are choosing to hire them. I said it in the other thread, if someone feels that a business turned them down for a position to hire an illegal immigrant then report the business. But people would rather just complain that illegal immigrants are "taking" their jobs instead of actually doing something about it

Yes, you did say that in the other thread. The problem is you only remember your comments, and obviously tuned out the replies to your claim.

First off, how would you go about proving, or even suspecting, you were passed on a job to hire an illegal? Second, how many jobs do you interview for that are considering hiring illegals? Most of those positions do not have an interview process. Third, who would we report it to? Unless we live in AZ, the cops wont do shit. That's the entire point of this thread, and the Az law. Duh? Lastly, yes we do care about people hiring illegals, you're just too busy trying to demonize us to listen or remember to what we are actually saying. More than once Ive said employers hiring illegals should be held responsible as well as the illegals themselves. And a couple others have touched on how this system only benefits individuals (illegal aliens and the employers saving money hiring them for artificially low wages) at the expense of the society as a whole.

If you are going to criticize what we are saying, start paying attention.

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

People aren't complaining about the businesses which are the root of the issue. They would rather complain about the illegals who are working.

My god you are delusional. Now the illegal immigrant problem isnt the illegals' fault, its not the unsecure border's fault, hell its not even our worthless politician's fault... nope, the root of the issue are businesses that hire these illegals. Its both of their fault, your complete inability to lay blame at the individual illegals' feet is irrelevant to their actual responsibility and crimes

And I love how you try to make the illegals sound so innocent with conveniently worded sentences like... 'the illegals who are working'. Ya, they are just poor hard working people trying to earn an honest buck, right? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif Your replies wouldnt sound so biased if you didnt make such weak attempts to alter reality. The truth would have been to say "the illegals who are working and paying no taxes".

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

It makes no difference whether they're here legally or illegally. There's no law against speaking Spanish in the U.S. so they're not doing anything wrong.

Your selective memory/intelligence is quite humorous. Your comment is like saying 'hey theres no law against carrying money, so why should we arrest bank robbers?" They are here illegally, them speaking Spanish or not is not the point of this thread or discussion, you just want to shift it to that point, because you think you have a better leg to stand on than when discussing the actual topic. Nobody here has said speaking spanish should be illegal or is somehow immoral, we've all indicated its merely a sign of the size of the illegal immigrant population and its attitude towards the society its supposedly melding into. But your short sighted logic keeps reverting that back to we are saying that speaking spanish is somehow a crime or immoral. Again, your inability to follow the most basic foundations of our replies, and this thread in general, is getting quite boring. Having to repeat the same points over and over because you keep forgetting them, ignoring them or trying to pigeon-hole them from a different angle, only shows you are just going round and round in logic-circles.

 

[LazyRider 10+ year member]

Let me explain why that is, you cant seem to follow my logic. If Mexicans follow our laws and immigrate here legally in numbers that alter our language, that would be one thing. But they aren't.


Im really finding it hard to understand why you are having so much trouble following my logic. Ive said, specifically now, that the language thing to me is simply a sign of how large the illegal immigrant problem is.

Did you know its a requirement to 'read write and speak basic english' to become a citizen? So again, if the vast majority of Mexicans are legal, why are we needing to offering dual languages? Does it take a Mexican like 20 years to learn a new language?

Frankly, I dont believe the statistic you posted about the number of illegals. I bet there are more than that in just AZ Texas and Cali. You cannot assume those estimates are correct, nobody really knows how many illegals are here. Why? Because we dont secure our borders so we just have to guess. Are any of the negative aspect of being forced to guess sinking in with you yet? And that statistic is like stats on how many people smoke pot, its almost a compete guess because there is virtually no way to get an accurate count.

Someone said earlier we cant expect poor Mexicans to pay for the lawyer required to go through the process to become legal. First off, poor imigrants have been doing it for hundreds of years. Second, there are many organizations willing to help in the process for a minimal charge, or for free. But then those people would have to pay taxes just like the rest of us, ruining their incentive to voluntarily step forward.

You kept asking for proof, I posted it. Then you don't believe it. So clearly your mind is made up. Hispanics account for the second largest race in this country. You said the reason that Spanish has been intertwined in our country is because of the number of illegals here but there are more here legally that here illegally. You're keep saying it's about the number of illegals here but there are more here legally so how could it possibly be about the amount of illegals? You can't seem to follow your own logic for some reason

 

[LazyRider 10+ year member]

Yes, you have, in so many words. You dont want to change the crietria for which they are available to live here. You just want to remove the 'illegally' from in front of their title.

Show me exactly where I've said it's ok for people to be here illegally.

 

[LazyRider 10+ year member]

So now we are starting to see road signs in spanish, have to dial 1 for english, and in many places in this country have to ask for an English employee top take our order.... for 5% of the population? You really shift your argument around depending on which way the wind is blowing. When we talk about Spanish becoming a secondary language here, you cite its because such a large portion of our population speaks spanish (and I guess if they speak both spanish and english, we are pricks for insisting they use english on a business transaction with a major company). But when the conversation shifts, you pull this 5% statistic completely out of your *** and start telling us how small the number of non-english speaking people really is. Awesome, 5%, so lets change all our signs back, get rid of press 1 for English, and demand you can speak english to be hired for a job that involves dealing with the public. Oh wait, you wont agree to that, instead you'll shift your argument back to their are so many spanish speakers we owe it to them to alter our society to accomodate them instead. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif

Here you go again assuming things. Show me where I said we NEED to accommodate spanish speakers. I was explaining to you why our society and businesses do it. Because there's a large population of Hispanics here LEGALLY which I posted proof of for you. If a business wants to hire someone that can barely speak english that's their decision. How is that the employees fault? You keep saying your problem is with the illegals when it's clearly not. Because the employees that can barely speak english could be here legally but yet you still have an issue with it.

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

You kept asking for proof, I posted it. Then you don't believe it. So clearly your mind is made up. Hispanics account for the second largest race in this country. You said the reason that Spanish has been intertwined in our country is because of the number of illegals here but there are more here legally that here illegally. You're keep saying it's about the number of illegals here but there are more here legally so how could it possibly be about the amount of illegals? You can't seem to follow your own logic for some reason

You didnt post proof, you posted an estimate that you want us to take as gospel.

Show me exactly where I've said it's ok for people to be here illegally.

You didnt, you just want to make what is now illegal, officially legal.

Here you go again assuming things. Show me where I said we NEED to accommodate spanish speakers. I was explaining to you why our society and businesses do it. Because there's a large population of Hispanics here LEGALLY which I posted proof of for you. If a business wants to hire someone that can barely speak english that's their decision. How is that the employees fault? You keep saying your problem is with the illegals when it's clearly not. Because the employees that can barely speak english could be here legally but yet you still have an issue with it.

My problem, as Ive said numerous times now, is with both the illegals and their employers. The person not following my logic is you.

 

[LazyRider 10+ year member]

One of the criteria of applying for citizenship is proving you can read, write and speak basic English. So I really have no idea what fantasy population of people you are referring to.

Totally ignorant. So now you're saying that the integration of the spanish language does not benefit people here legally?

First off, how would you go about proving, or even suspecting, you were passed on a job to hire an illegal? Second, how many jobs do you interview for that are considering hiring illegals? Most of those positions do not have an interview process. Third, who would we report it to? Unless we live in AZ, the cops wont do shit. That's the entire point of this thread, and the Az law. Duh? Lastly, yes we do care about people hiring illegals, you're just too busy trying to demonize us to listen or remember to what we are actually saying. More than once Ive said employers hiring illegals should be held responsible as well as the illegals themselves. And a couple others have touched on how this system only benefits individuals (illegal aliens and the employers saving money hiring them for artificially low wages) at the expense of the society as a whole.
If you are going to criticize what we are saying, start paying attention.

You are the one arguing that illegals are taking so many American jobs. If you believe a company is hiring illegals then why wouldn't you report them to I.N.S duh! Your main argument has been against the illegal immigrants and have barely even touched on the subject of the businesses that hire them when they are a huge issue.

My god you are delusional. Now the illegal immigrant problem isnt the illegals' fault, its not the unsecure border's fault, hell its not even our worthless politician's fault... nope, the root of the issue are businesses that hire these illegals. Its both of their fault, your complete inability to lay blame at the individual illegals' feet is irrelevant to their actual responsibility and crimes
And I love how you try to make the illegals sound so innocent with conveniently worded sentences like... 'the illegals who are working'. Ya, they are just poor hard working people trying to earn an honest buck, right? Your replies wouldnt sound so biased if you didnt make such weak attempts to alter reality. The truth would have been to say "the illegals who are working and paying no taxes".

Never said the illegals weren't at fault but if people would just stop hiring them they would have very little reason to come here. Simple supply and demand. If there is no demand for them then they will stop coming.

Your selective memory/intelligence is quite humorous. Your comment is like saying 'hey theres no law against carrying money, so why should we arrest bank robbers?" They are here illegally, them speaking Spanish or not is not the point of this thread or discussion, you just want to shift it to that point, because you think you have a better leg to stand on than when discussing the actual topic. Nobody here has said speaking spanish should be illegal or is somehow immoral, we've all indicated its merely a sign of the size of the illegal immigrant population and its attitude towards the society its supposedly melding into. But your short sighted logic keeps reverting that back to we are saying that speaking spanish is somehow a crime or immoral. Again, your inability to follow the most basic foundations of our replies, and this thread in general, is getting quite boring. Having to repeat the same points over and over because you keep forgetting them, ignoring them or trying to pigeon-hole them from a different angle, only shows you are just going round and round in logic-circles.

I didn't bring the topic of them speaking Spanish into this discussion. You have the issue with people speaking Spanish in America not me. I posted proof that there are more legal Hispanics here than illegals but you refuse to believe it and then call me closed minded and insist I'm living in an alternate reality. You want to blame illegals for the integration of the Spanish language in America but they're not the reason for it. Again, I posted proof that there are more here legally than illegally and they make up for the second largest race in America. They speak Spanish too not just the illegals. You're refusing to believe that the amount of legal Hispanics here could possibly be the cause of it. You're saying the fact that businesses and America and general is integrating Spanish isn't because of the 50+ million Hispanics here legally but it's because of the 10-20 million here illegally.

 

[AlterEgo99 5,000+ posts]

Still waiting for SOMEONE to spell the title of this thread correctly.

 

[LazyRider 10+ year member]

I don't think anyone here said it's ok for them to be here illegally. Unless I missed it

Yes, you have, in so many words. You dont want to change the crietria for which they are available to live here. You just want to remove the 'illegally' from in front of their title.

Show me exactly where I've said it's ok for people to be here illegally.

You didnt, you just want to make what is now illegal, officially legal.

Yea I'm the one that's not following what you're saying? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crazy.gif.c13912c32de98515d3142759a824dae7.gif

 

[LazyRider 10+ year member]

How about walk into a fast food restaurant in California and have to ask for an English speaking employee to take your order. Yes, its happened to me. Was it this huge inconvenience? No, that's not the point. I wouldn't even have a problem with our shifting social structures if it wasn't brought about by an illegal flood of immigrants coming here with so little concern for adjusting to our culture. This is an English speaking country, and it is not too much to ask that immigrants learn it when they come here. Even President Obama has said the same thing.

Im not assuming anything, there is no denying their culture is trying to impose their language on ours. Before you say it, no, not ALL of them //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif but enough to create a situation in which English speaking people deal with it on a daily basis.
What do I mean when I say conform to our society. In this context, Im referring to our language. Hasn't that been obvious?

And the second largest race can learn the native language of the country they moved to, just like every other race has.

I think it's pretty clear your issue is not with the illegals.

Let me explain why that is, you cant seem to follow my logic. If Mexicans follow our laws and immigrate here legally in numbers that alter our language, that would be one thing. But they aren't.

There's over 50 million Hispanics here legally. Is that enough?