If I could mate with an amp and have children

[Suicide Bobb 5,000+ posts]

Before ever reaching clipping, and with wattage and gain levels matched, no filtering or EQ being applied at the amplifier, nothing changed at the head unit, I can tell you that my Zed gear, SONY gear, Zeff gear, whatever gear, sounds different from each other. Yes I have the drivers to provide that level of resolution and the ears to detect the difference. To help drive that point home and remove any doubt, I build my own ribbons and I can detect the difference in the foils used to make the element. I have no doubt you have the level of intelligence to be able to appreciate that feat.
How do you measure resolution (not distortion) and ambient cues? How do you measure the character of the bloom when multiple instruments are striking the same chord? How do you measure the apparent difference in the presentation of the timing (being able to keep pace, or the leading edge of the music if you will) of different amplifiers? Some amplifiers have less or no global feedback, some have absolutely analytical amounts of feedback applied, some have harmonic time alignment. Some use mosfets, some use n-fets, some are bipolar. Even if every one of those amplifiers was exactly matched for power levels, there's no way they would subjectively sound the same unless YOU couldn't tell the difference.

You're right - the RC challenge was never about proving that all amplifiers sound the same, it was about a head fuck. Amplifiers do sound different, no matter how gross or subtle the difference may be, or how inept the individual is to be able to notice the difference. It's really that simple.

And yes - I am a huge tweaker, lol.

I wish I could quote this for my siggy!

 

[n2audio 5,000+ posts]

Before ever reaching clipping, and with wattage and gain levels matched, no filtering or EQ being applied at the amplifier, nothing changed at the head unit, I can tell you that my Zed gear, SONY gear, Zeff gear, whatever gear, sounds different from each other. Yes I have the drivers to provide that level of resolution and the ears to detect the difference. To help drive that point home and remove any doubt, I build my own ribbons and I can detect the difference in the foils used to make the element. I have no doubt you have the level of intelligence to be able to appreciate that feat.
How do you measure resolution (not distortion) and ambient cues? How do you measure the character of the bloom when multiple instruments are striking the same chord? How do you measure the apparent difference in the presentation of the timing (being able to keep pace, or the leading edge of the music if you will) of different amplifiers? Some amplifiers have less or no global feedback, some have absolutely analytical amounts of feedback applied, some have harmonic time alignment. Some use mosfets, some use n-fets, some are bipolar. Even if every one of those amplifiers was exactly matched for power levels, there's no way they would subjectively sound the same unless YOU couldn't tell the difference.

You're right - the RC challenge was never about proving that all amplifiers sound the same, it was about a head fuck. Amplifiers do sound different, no matter how gross or subtle the difference may be, or how inept the individual is at being able to notice the difference. It's really that simple.

And yes - I am a huge tweaker, lol.

Frequencies in, frequencies out.

It would be a lot more interesting if your claims held water. Unfortunately, they don't.

I could only guess how many pleadings i've read just like that full of techno-babble ambiguous terms.

A number of people much like you actually TOOK the challenge. They either awoke to reality, or came up with a whole new level of denia-babble (mind ****?) to explain it away.

Some of the enlightened were industry pro's whose names rc agreed not to disclose for fear it could impact their high end equipment sales.

But i'm sure i'm wrong.

It's much more likely you're simply the ONE that truly hears it.

 

[whitedragon551 5,000+ posts]

Frequencies in, frequencies out. It would be a lot more interesting if your claims held water. Unfortunately, they don't.

I could only guess how many pleadings i've read just like that full of techno-babble ambiguous terms.

A number of people much like you actually TOOK the challenge. They either awoke to reality, or came up with a whole new level of denia-babble (mind ****?) to explain it away.

Some of the enlightened were industry pro's whose names rc agreed not to disclose for fear it could impact their high end equipment sales.

But i'm sure i'm wrong.

It's much more likely you're simply the ONE that truly hears it.

You didnt rebute anything other than say he is wrong. Without anything to back up what he said seems like your the one on the rampage.

 

[PPI_GUY 10+ year member]

The parameters RC put on the challenge were designed to create a level playing field for both amplifiers in a a/b test. Input levels measured and set as closely as possible, same for outputs and voltage. What the challenge doesn't settle is why amplifiers with better components perform as well in tonality, clarity, impact and headroom when those parameters change in the automotive environment.

RC's challenge could be applied to any product group. Computers, sailboats, vacuum cleaners, whatever and all will perform the same if you limit the better built pieces to parameters that allow the inferior product to compete at the same level. But, you can't tell me all computers are the same anymore than you can tell me all amplifiers sound the same.

Any argument/discussion along this line of thought is pointless anyway because my opinion of sound quality is subjective based on my own ears. No two sets of those are ever the same either.

 

[Haunz 10+ year member]

How do you measure resolution (not distortion) and ambient cues? How do you measure the character of the bloom when multiple instruments are striking the same chord? How do you measure the apparent difference in the presentation of the timing (being able to keep pace, or the leading edge of the music if you will) of different amplifiers? Some amplifiers have less or no global feedback, some have absolutely analytical amounts of feedback applied, some have harmonic time alignment. Some use mosfets, some use n-fets, some are bipolar. Even if every one of those amplifiers was exactly matched for power levels, there's no way they would subjectively sound the same unless YOU couldn't tell the difference.

You elude that your ears can hear something that can't be measured... the reality of the situation is that no matter what the topology of the amp circuit is, the output can be measured and categorized in terms of things like slew rate, damping factor, THD+N, frquency range, phase shift, et cetera...

Amplifiers do sound different, no matter how gross or subtle the difference may be, or how inept the individual is at being able to notice the difference. It's really that simple.

Sound different to what, an oscilloscope ?

If you can't hear it, then there is no audible difference... and speaking in general terms, the only time one amp is going to sound different from another is if it is putting out a different amount of power, is running into distortion, has some equalization circuit running, OR has some major design flaw... and typically, the only factor beyond power and THD+N that is going to make any audible difference is in the frequency response...

For example, I have a kenwood reciever in my kitchen and the manual clearly shows rolloff below 40hz at about 3db/octave... will that cause a difference in sound with a full range pair of bass bins when compared to another amp that plays flat to 20hz? certainly... will that cause a difference in sound with a pair of bookshelves and a separate subwoofer? Probably not...

RCs challange shows that even with a 'bad' amp... a little EQ can still make it sound indistinguishable from a good amp... and what most people should consider is that most amps ARE good amps with less then +/- 1db 20-20khz...

 

[nateberrier 10+ year member]

OH balls. WRYYYYY. I think the sony provides a more full sound at low volumes compared to the granite definitely. but they both sound good. im not going to argue this, but if its the case then yall can have my old school amps and im going to buy some boss and pyle, **** i might even switch back to H/U power

 

[Suicide Bobb 5,000+ posts]

Maybe RC was just trying to prove that you CAN make all amps sound the same at a certain voltage. But nobody listens to their amps at the same exact volume everyday, so it's completely irrelevant.

 

[Bassin Buick]

OH balls. WRYYYYY. I think the sony provides a more full sound at low volumes compared to the granite definitely. but they both sound good. im not going to argue this, but if its the case then yall can have my old school amps and im going to buy some boss and pyle, **** i might even switch back to H/U power

So i'm first in line for the ES , right?

 

[VWBobby 10+ year member]

It seems only a few people caught the point of the RC Challenge...

Maybe RC was just trying to prove that you CAN make all amps sound the same at a certain voltage. But nobody listens to their amps at the same exact volume everyday, so it's completely irrelevant.

Ding ding! He spent quite a lot of time and effort to make his amp sound like the reference amp. He's even admitted himself that all amps don't sound the same!

RC:

"There is no question that all amps are not the same. It is very easy to measure large differences in the performance of amplifiers. This is true in nearly every known specification, including power, noise, distortion, etc. My experience has led me to believe that even though these differences can be easily measured, hearing those differences may not be so easy."

I don't know why he ends his sentence "hearing those differences may not be so easy".... Obviously you can hear a difference. In the test he even said that the power roll-off on the low end of the reference amp showed that his amp was making more power at lower frequencies. This was changing the sound of his amp compared to the reference. Once he dialed back the power, suddenly they sounded more similar. It may not fall into the definition of 'frequency response', but it definitely would be a spec like "'amplitude response in x-y frequency range". We don't need a spec like that, but it would more accurately describe what the amp is really producing in terms of volume/power from 20-20Khz.

Granted, for the average listener, it doesn't matter. Especially in car audio where you're going to hear more road noise more than 1% THD from your amp. For the home theater environment however, there's a huge difference in sound between a $250 unit and a $5,000 one.

 

[n2audio 5,000+ posts]

but if its the case then yall can have my old school amps and im going to buy some boss and pyle, **** i might even switch back to H/U power

Idiotic comments like this just reinforce the fact that you don't even understand what's being discussed.

 

[Haunz 10+ year member]

He's even admitted himself that all amps don't sound the same! RC:

"There is no question that all amps are not the same. It is very easy to measure large differences in the performance of amplifiers. This is true in nearly every known specification, including power, noise, distortion, etc. My experience has led me to believe that even though these differences can be easily measured, hearing those differences may not be so easy."

He didn't admit anything there... he said the differences can be easily measured, but hearing them may not be so easy.... he worded it that way because in some cases the differences might be audible (see my post above) but in most cases they are not....

It may not fall into the definition of 'frequency response', but it definitely would be a spec like "'amplitude response in x-y frequency range". We don't need a spec like that, but it would more accurately describe what the amp is really producing in terms of volume/power from 20-20Khz.

That is the definition of frequency response... and most amps are either rated at X watts 20hz-20khz, or at 1khz which may give an extra db or so...

there's a huge difference in sound between a $250 unit and a $5,000 one.

I think you are grossly over exaggerating... lots of $250 recievers make clean power 20hz-20khz...

 

[VWBobby 10+ year member]

That is the definition of frequency response... and most amps are either rated at X watts 20hz-20khz, or at 1khz which may give an extra db or so...

Actually, frequency response is the Range of the frequencies that the amp will reproduce or respond to. The "challenge" showed that the reference amp was putting out less power or amplitude in the lower frequency range compared to RC's amp. Once the amp was dialed back, they sounded the same. This is different from the range of frequencies....its the power at the lower range that was different.

I think you are grossly over exaggerating... lots of $250 recievers make clean power 20hz-20khz...

Yes, they make 'clean' power but they don't sound as good! I have a $60 Sherwood 5.1 that sounds similar to my $250 Denon 7.1, but I would be a fool to compare it to some of the $1000+ amplifiers I've heard. I've kept the same speakers so I know what it sounds like A/B. Next time you're at a big box store, try comparing amplifiers A/B with the same set of speakers. A high end set of clean speakers can really show how some amps sound "hollow" compred to others. Of course you have to defeat all the EQ's and try to set them flat...which is hard on some of the new computer controlled equipment.

 

[Phoenix Risen 10+ year member]

ive had 3 examples of this in my car in the last month, i was running a ap2004 on my mids and highs, swithced to a jbl gts150, there was a very clear difference in the output and the clarity of the amps. the jbl far and away outperformed the ap.

shortly after that i swapped the jbl for 2 kicker 40ss( one bridged to each side) again a noticeable, not as great as the ap to jbl, difference between the setups.

that said, can you make 2 amps, one of high quality and one of low quality, sound very similar to the point where they cant be defined by the human ear, yes. but that is only if they are close in power output, thd, and a hand full of other factors.

how ever if there is a large difference in those factors that is not compensated for by adjusting the amps then there can easily be a noticeable difference.

 

[Bassin Buick]

Hey Phoenix , you missed a letter in the title under you name. LOL