I need some advice, dont worry I am being detailed

[holycrap 10+ year member]

Here is the deal, I am getting a 2001 Nissan Frontier Crew cab (4door version)

i have been going over some ideas in my head and i have 2 pretty strong ones

#1

7 or 8 inch mid bass subs in fiberglass kick

6.5 comp's in the doors(front)

2 10's in a sealed box behind the 2nd row of seats

#2

6.5 comps in fiberglass kick

5.25 comps in the rear doors (or fiber glass kicks, if i can do it for the rear)

2 12's in a sealed box behind the 2nd row of seats

for my comps i will prolly run illusion audio

same with the subs

but my problem lies is what to power this

im not going for spl or sq but straigh 50/50

this will be a daily driver and needs to be 100% stealth (minus the fiberglass kicks)

so which install do you think will end up more sucessfull and wtf should i power this with, i can do up to 3 amps, depending on size, but they are going under the rear bench seat, so agian size matters

p.s.

dont know illusion stuff?

http://www.illusionaudio.com

Click to read more...

 

[holycrap 10+ year member]

bueller? ferris bueller?

 

[holycrap 10+ year member]

wow, such a huge responce

 

[holycrap 10+ year member]

you guys ****

 

[B&R Innovation2 10+ year member]

Well i'd honestly do #2 because well it makes the most sence.

Give us specs on the drivers and we'll be able to help with the power question much better

 

[holycrap 10+ year member]

(Subs)

Carbon Series, Nd-8(idea #1)

Carbon Series, Nd-10(idea #1)

Carbon Series, Nd-12(idea #2)

(Comps)

Carbon Series, Nd-6(idea #1 & #2)

Carbon Series, Nd-5(idea #2)

Here are the tweeter and crossover specs

Carbon Series Two Way

Component Sets:

Nd-5.1, Nd-6.1, Nd-8.1

Tweeter Features:

· Angled or Straight Mounting Options

· Surface or Flush Mounting Capability

· Neodymium Magnet

· Acoustically Damped Rear Chamber

· Narrow Aperture Design

· SDT Coated Silk Dome for Enhanced Frequency

Response and Moisture Resistance

· Aluminum Former

· Ferro Fluid Cooled for Enhanced Damping &

Power Handling

· Standard 1 7/8" Through Hole Diameter

Crossover Features:

· High Current Input Jumpers

· Bi-Amp Inputs

· 14 different Tweeter level attenuation's.

· Zobel Network for Superior Frequency Response

· Polypropylene Jumper Capacitors

· Metal Film Capacitor

· Air Core Coils For Lower Saturation

· Gold Plated Terminals

· Vent Holes for Heat

 

[Bavarian3 10+ year member]

i would do neither. i would do....

6.5 components in the fiberglass kicks

6.5 midbass in the front doors

2 12" subs in behind the second row.

Leave out rear fill.

 

[ss3079 5,000+ posts]

i would do neither. i would do....
6.5 components in the fiberglass kicks

6.5 midbass in the front doors

2 12" subs in behind the second row.

Leave out rear fill.

I agree with leaving out the rear fill.

6.5" in kicks and either a 6.5" or 8" in the doors ... probably won't even need the extra midbass driver. Sometimes people even throw their dedicated mid in the rear ...

- Steve

 

[holycrap 10+ year member]

thx, but we got a lil off topic

I know what I want. And it is between those two

so back to the topic

what kinda amps should i run?

 

[Bavarian3 10+ year member]

yeah although it seeems like his cutouts in the front are 6.5 and mounting depth would probly be a problem when going up to 7" and 8".

as for amps, it depends how much power u want to send the subs. If its a small amount of power u can end up getting one amp. but u should end up with 2 amps. a 4 or 2 channel for the speakers, depending on if u decide to get 4 speakers or 2 speakers and 2 midbass. or just 2 speakers(will definetly be good enough). Then a nice mono amp to push ur subs

 

[geolemon 10+ year member]

i would do neither. i would do....
6.5 components in the fiberglass kicks

6.5 midbass in the front doors

2 12" subs in behind the second row.

Leave out rear fill.

I'm absolutely in agreement.

Get the front-stage speakers in kicks where they can best contribute to sound quality.

Leave out any other same-frequency-range drivers out of the install (rear fill or otherwise)... you'll simply create diffusing and confusing phasing anomolies (which are hard to consciously pick out, per se... but damage your imaging, these are the cues your subconscious uses to "believe" or "not believe" what it's hearing //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif), and can even cause response issues from the frequency-based nodes of cancellation and combination.

If you use a separate midbass driver (something specifically built for that purpose... something with a real good excursion to it, and a low Fs) for the doors, you can raise the high-pass filter on the comp set in the kicks, enabling them to play louder, less distortion (no difficult, long-excursion bass for them //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif).

However, installing that midbass driver in the doors - especially since it's a low frequency driver - is going to require more care than average. No "drop in" speaker here. You'll NEED that webbed inner door skin to work like a proper baffle. You'll be rewarded with bass, for your hard work.

As far as the subs go...

What about the Blaupunkt Overdrive "saucer" subs?

Granted the Illusions have low mounting depth also... but the Blaus have the mounting depth of what.. a AA battery? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smokin.gif.f1dc8d2acb1809e863ebd6a47eaa0d45.gif

No preference, I've just actually heard the Blau's, they sound nice, and have pretty decent output (about 14mm Xmax I believe).

I've heard the Illusions were nice... but I've always guessed more that they left an impression more because they were unique and cool looking (the Blau's are too), nothing really noteworthy of the Illusion spec sheets - but I believe they were pretty pricey.. how much? The Saucers will be about $200 on the street, supposed to arrive soon... (I'm one of the lucky few to hear some pre-production proofs, at DLC, who did much of the design legwork).

 

[holycrap 10+ year member]

read the specs of my subs and comps

i am looking for actual brand/model #'s

 

[holycrap 10+ year member]

geo

I made a thread lil while ago about the Blau subs, didnt get much of a responce and i havent been able to read any reviews about em

I have heard the Illusions I want to get. And fell in love with em.

However, installing that midbass driver in the doors - especially since it's a low frequency driver - is going to require more care than average. No "drop in" speaker here. You'll NEED that webbed inner door skin to work like a proper baffle. You'll be rewarded with bass, for your hard work

explain this to me, i have never put an midbass driver in a door

 

[geolemon 10+ year member]

thx, but we got a lil off topic
I know what I want. And it is between those two

so back to the topic

what kinda amps should i run?

Sorry, if you feel that was out of scope.. but here's the reason why, if you care to understand what will be degraded, acoustically.. it's scientific, but easy to read I think:

http://www.betteraudio.com/geolemon/Phasing/Phasing.htm

Same argument goes for the same-frequency-range 'eights-plus-tens'... you won't get "the best of both", you'll simply be constrained by "the limits of each" //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

That is, whichever sub reaches it's limits first, will force your output limitations...

And that "limit" will be frequency dependent, and unique per driver, complicating any hopes of 'balancing' them.

Anyways...

Anyway, as far as amps go...

I won't mention any specifics by brand or model, but I think I know what you want for features, we can work into a model that way, hopefully.

You've got a comp set.

100x2 is generally a nice number for a comp set.. you won't really overpower a comp set rated for less (you can set the gains conservatively, if need be, and even ensure greater SQ), and you won't be underpowering a set of speakers rated for more.

You'll want an amp that has an adjustable high-pass filter built into it... which you'll probably end up settiing in this case around 200Hz or 300Hz.

Use the provided Xover that comes with the comp set... it's designed specifically to flatter those drivers, and to yield proper response across the Xover point. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/cool.gif.3bcaf8f141236c00f8044d07150e34f7.gif

100x2 is also a nice number for a 6"-8" midbass driver... maybe a tad more would be nice, and allow you to run a bit more power to the more excursion-heavy and power hungry lower frequency range.. but what really matters is that you might want a hair more power, relative to the front speakers... you could always adjust the front comp set down, by setting it's amps gains conservatively, and assure yourself of clean SQ. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

Now... the catch is, you want to run midbass drivers, and your amps typically have an "either HP or LP" on their filters...

But some amps have crossover pre-outs on them...

That is, whereever you have your HP filter set to, it will filter the pre-outs via a LP filter set to the same point. Very cool feature, and probably necessary in your case... if you want to avoid buying an external Xover to do all this for you - which is another option, just unnecessary.

If you've got 100x2 (basically) for your front stage, 400x1 is a nice number to split across your subs, you can generate some huge output with that.

Any higher isn't really necessary for SQ purposes, but can be fun with capable subs for a little booming when desired...

So your sub amp is more up to you...

If you get anything larger than 400 or 500 x 1, be sure to get yourself an amp that has a remote gain control, so you can throttle it back to tolerable SQ levels when you need to. Nice feature.

Subsonic filters are nice, but given the constraints of your install, my guess is you're going to have to do a sealed enclosure in the rear... so the subsonic is 100% unnecessary in your case.

But what you will want, I think, is a built-in, adjustable low-pass Xover.

With all these filters, I'd either get a 12dB/octave, or a 24dB/octave, to ensure proper phasing response across the resulting Xover frequency... odd order (18dB/oct, 30dB/octave) filters don't yield smooth phase response in combination.

So...

100x2 for the comp set, with an even-order, adjustable, active HP filter built in, and an active LP pre-out that corresponds.

100x2 for the midbasses, with an even-order, adjustable, active HP filter built in.

Sub amp is up to you, but I'd look for a remote gain control, built in even order LP filter, and that's about all you need.

Maybe you can find a 4 channel amp that has the active true "crossover" HP filter with LP preouts...

That way, you can run your inputs to channels 1 and 2 for the comp set, run a short RCA from the filtered, active LP pre-outs into the inputs for channel 3 and 4, and have a single-amp solution. Could be more cost effective.

 

[geolemon 10+ year member]

geo
I made a thread lil while ago about the Blau subs, didnt get much of a responce and i havent been able to read any reviews about em

I have heard the Illusions I want to get. And fell in love with em.

explain this to me, i have never put an midbass driver in a door

Like I said, I have no preference on the subs...

I on the other hand have only heard the Blau's, of the two, so your call. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/cool.gif.3bcaf8f141236c00f8044d07150e34f7.gif

As far as the midbass driver, it's pretty simple.

Why do we put speakers in enclosures?

Picture a speaker moving, no enclosure.

Cone moves out, compresses the air in front of the cone, decompresses the air behind the cone.

Cone moves in, decompresses the air in front of the cone, compresses the air behind the cone.

This is why the waves coming off the rear of the cone are exactly 180 degrees out of phase with the waves coming off the front of the cone.. they are exactly the inverse of the front-of-cone energy.

And they would cancel each other out, and virtually create no sound, as all the high-pressure energy on one side of the speaker dissipated into the low-pressure energy on the other side of the speaker...

The only sound energy that would escape would be due to momentum, directionality. The worst cancellations happen at the lower frequencies. :thumbsdow

So, we throw subs in sealed boxes, and just imprison that rear wave energy, where it can do no harm.

Or we throw them in ported boxes, where we use a port to slow that sound energy in such a way that when it finally does escape the port, it's more in-phase with the front-of-cone sound energy. Nifty.

But the fundamental reason we do any of this is because the rear-of-cone energy is evil and must be stopped or corrected at all costs. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

Now, picture your door.

Take your flimsy plastic virtually-acoustically-transparent door panel off, and all you'll see is an inner door skin that's virtually all open holes and webbing. More holes and open area than metal, in many cases. Should be a layer of plastic film stretched over it.

That's hardly the sort of baffle that's going to stop the rear-of-cone energy from escaping into your interior where it can do harm.

See the problem?

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/titanic.gif.8089b7552c370bcc138aa121756d0c0b.gif

Addressing THAT issue is primarily what I'm talking about.

The most thorough way to address this that I've heard of so far, is to cover your inner door skin in aluminum foil, and then lay a few layers of fiberglass over that, hugging the contours of your door, letting that cure in place.

Pop it off when cured, cut out any needed holes (like the tiny ones your door clips need to go through. And the speaker hole, of course.

Now's a good time to test fit your door panel... also, make sure this new panel that you made is nice and rigid, shouldn't flex.

Now, 3M sells a tape that's typically used for attaching body kits to cars, pick up a roll... probably 2 even.

Use that liberally, all around the perimiter of your new panel, and be sure to use some spots of tape at opportune points on the inside of the panel, to really securely attach and brace that thin fiberglass panel.

That might be all you need to do...

Although before you do that, you'll also want to do an extensive damping material job... get the outer door skin pieces cut, and in place, before you remove the backing... it's a bear sometimes doing the outer door skin. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/cool.gif.3bcaf8f141236c00f8044d07150e34f7.gif