Help with JBL speaker repair - refoam gone wrong?

[BenH]

I guess what we really want to find out is if the tweeter's wires are pumping out bass. If they are, then it is safe to assume those wires are joined up the line somewhere after the amp. That would explain why Camry JBL amplifier pinouts show just one set of wires going to each rear.
Any of the satellites will do. They should be able to play enough bass to verify our hypothesis.

Ok, so this is my plan..probably can try tomorrow.. Just take one of the speakers with a lead of wire off each one and touch each wire to the pinouts on the quick connect coming from the amp.

What I'm looking for, in essence is that each of the 2 pairs of wires coming from the amp put out the *same* sound?

2 more questions:
- These satellites are 8 ohm, so that just means I will probably need to pump the volume a bit, yes?
- There is no risk of me damaging the speakers? If so, and there is something I need to do to mitigate that.

I actually think I have an old set of similar satellite speakers from an old computer 5.1 system in a box somewhere. Maybe I will try to find those because if I blow one I won't be so upset!

 

[Water Bear]

Apparently the issues I'm explaining on this 2007 car have been around for many years. This blog post discusses an option:

Upgrading Rear Speakers Toyota Camry With Factory JBL Sound System

Car audio tips tricks how to vehicle 12volt mobile video alarm keyless entry remote start hands free Bluetooth electronics installation autotech

caraudiotips.blogspot.com

What they did was use a coaxial setup (I think because the tweeter was self contained) and re-wired it to separate the signals.

I am considering buying the exact model he uses (Alpine SPE-6090) and doing the wiring as he shows to run each speaker.

Any thoughts on these options?

I'm late to the party here, but I don't see any reason you can't do exactly what was done in the link you shared there. It doesn't sound too confusing to me. Your factory system is crossed over somewhere "upstream" of the speakers, so you get 4 wires to the factory speakers - two are the signal to the midbass, two are the signal to the tweeters. Take the factory plug that goes to your blown speakers, cut it, wire to the appropriate wires coming out of an aftermarket speaker (2 to woofer, 2 to tweeter) and you're off to the races.

The part about this which is unusual is that 99% of factory speaker systems provide a full range signal on 2 lines that are crossed over at the speaker. So for most cars, 2 wires go into a box (or more likely an RLC circuit literally glued on the basket of the woofer) which splits it into 2 sets of 2 output wires.

TL;DR be brave, follow your own link, and I don't see why that wouldn't work with a pair of aftermarket coaxials, assuming the aftermarket speakers fully fit under your rear deck (check the clearance).

Don't bother trying to repair your factory speakers unless it absolutely comes down to that. They appear to be about the cheapest kind of paper cone you can get. As others have said, to do the job right you have to shim when you do the repair, and it's not going to be worth all that effort and expense to repair speakers which were sub-par to begin with. Go for the upgrade. Most aftermarkets come with rubber surrounds anyway which will tend to resist weathering better than cheap foam-on-paper.

 

[Doxquzme Premium Member]

Q: These satellites are 8 ohm, so that just means I will probably need to pump the volume a bit, yes?
A: Shouldn't require any substantial input or volume to determine if they are putting out full frequency or not. If all you here is high or low frequencies relative to the speaker leads your testing this with, then the frequency is divided prior to the end of that wire, if not, and the sound is the same, then they are not divided prior to the end of the wire leads.

Q: There is no risk of me damaging the speakers? If so, and there is something I need to do to mitigate that?
A: No, moderate listening volume should net you the results you need. The little 2-3 inch driver in that surround satellite speaker will handle what your OEM factory output is providing, should not be an issue. Just don't crank it up!

 

[Doxquzme Premium Member]

The more critical point is the midbass driver lead (wire). If highs are coming out of it, then it's full range. If that is the case, you don't have to test the other. Since there may be a passive (capacitor) inline with the tweeter that you cannot see, it may only produce highs even though the frequency isn't divided electronically at or before the amplifier. TO date, I've never encountered ANY manufacturer that uses a passive dividing network (crossover) on the midbass driver. This requires the use of inductor (coil) and a capacitor and it's usually right on the back of the woofer basket orin a stand alone crossover (like the ones you've seen in some of the aftermarket component sets covered in earlier post) not somewhere down the line.

Both of these could be present inline in your system, but not at all likely as they are almost always right next to the speaker driver location for performance reasons. So, once you determine if the output is full range or not, then we can determine the next course as it is solely dependant on this criteria.

 

[Water Bear]

Oh yeah, one more thing to consider is some kind of high-level signal summation, like maybe this. I know you are budget constrained (and it's hard to believe there are no cheap, inline signal summers in the world) but that'd be a solution to your problem of "I have 4 lines carrying 2 different signals, and I'd rather have 2 lines carrying all the signals" problem.

Edit: Never mind, it looks like those output low level signals?

 

[BenH]

Thanks, all - I will update hopefully EOD tomorrow.
And let me also just say that your patience and imparting of knowledge is appreciated and more than I hoped for!

 

[hispls 5,000+ posts]

I refoamed it without shims, it is entirely possible that the vibration I am still getting is because I didn't shim when I did it?

Yes, but that kind of rubbing noise could also be from the coil/former being bent/damaged/deformed or even some debris found its way down into the gap. The tell for me is that if you press one side of the cone you say the noise goes away which leads me to believe the other side is pulling off center.

If you ever give up on this and just tear it apart take a peek down the gap and see how little wiggle room you really have for any slight misalignment.

 

[BenH]

Q: These satellites are 8 ohm, so that just means I will probably need to pump the volume a bit, yes?
A: Shouldn't require any substantial input or volume to determine if they are putting out full frequency or not. If all you here is high or low frequencies relative to the speaker leads your testing this with, then the frequency is divided prior to the end of that wire, if not, and the sound is the same, then they are not divided prior to the end of the wire leads.

Q: There is no risk of me damaging the speakers? If so, and there is something I need to do to mitigate that?
A: No, moderate listening volume should net you the results you need. The little 2-3 inch driver in that surround satellite speaker will handle what your OEM factory output is providing, should not be an issue. Just don't crank it up!

I believe we have our answer:



Clearly when connected to the mid-range wires we are getting different sound than when connected to the tweeter wires.

(p.s. You Tube is telling me my content is blocked in Russia....might block in more because its got music from the radio playing, but trust me the tweeters are putting out high tinny sound and the mids have a deeper resonance).

 

[Doxquzme Premium Member]

Good, least now we can find out how/where they are filtered (crossed). Are you able to get to the same pair of wires that lead from the amplifier? If so, test them again there and we will have a definitive answer. You should be able to just pull the harness and like you did here, plug the speaker wire into the respective resepticals/pin connections and see if they still act the same. If they are pins, be careful no to short them on the other pins around the one you need, you'll need to isolate it. Or, just put a piece of electrician tape around the connection you make or inbetween the pins if applicable. If you can't manage to isolate but know which wires, tap into them (or cut and splice in the tester wire and repair after), once you run the test, we will know the options available to you

 

[Doxquzme Premium Member]

These are very handy for such a job.

Amazon product ASIN B07114RK67

 

[Doxquzme Premium Member]

- OR -

Since we now know they are filtered leads, you can press ahead with the Alpine options I posted earlier and you're done.

 

[BenH]

Good, least now we can find out how/where they are filtered (crossed). Are you able to get to the same pair of wires that lead from the amplifier? If so, test them again there and we will have a definitive answer. You should be able to just pull the harness and like you did here, plug the speaker wire into the respective resepticals/pin connections and see if they still act the same. If they are pins, be careful no to short them on the other pins around the one you need, you'll need to isolate it. Or, just put a piece of electrician tape around the connection you make or inbetween the pins if applicable. If you can't manage to isolate but know which wires, tap into them (or cut and splice in the tester wire and repair after), once you run the test, we will know the options available to you

I'm not sure what more we are trying to figure out here??
These wires *do* come from the amplifier, if I'm not mistaken, if not where would they be coming from?
For me to access the amplifier I need to pull out power seats, and I don't really want to get into doing that, especially when I don't know what more this is going to tell us.

We have already shown that if I just hook a coaxial speaker up directly with a single pair of wires I'm not going to get the full signal with this test right?

So it seems we were back to what I was stating from the beginning, and what @Water Bear was also confirming - which is that if I want to use a 2-way coaxial back here I am going to need to clip the tweeter wires on the coaxial and wire each pair separately to the 2 mid and 2 tweeter wires on my harness.

The wires are likely crossed over in my amplifier, which is I think mentioned in at least one of the videos or posts I've previously referenced. As I am not going to replace my amplifier, nor do I want to have to do anything beyond replacing these speakers, I am confused why we need to do anymore tests here.

So I think we are still back to the options I have covered several times:
1) Fix the speakers - in which case problem solved. I've got another refoam kit coming so will see if that works.
2) Purchase just a component mid, wire it to my mid lines and try to reuse my existing tweeters in their current bracket and wiring them to the tweeter wires on the harness. Again, only risk here is that the tweeter bracket doesn't sit properly ontop of a new mid, but since it is basically a 6x9 oval there is a decent chance.
3) Purchase a 2-way coaxial and wire it like mentioned above.

I'm not sure the advantage that #1 has over #2 since both of them require me to do a bit of wire clipping and crimping (and/or maybe a bit of soldering). I think what it comes down to is trying to find a speaker set at close to 2 ohm as possible with a decent price (preferably under $100). The Alpine's used in the blog I can get for like $65-70, but the ohm rating on them is a bit of an unknown (as they seem to be listed as 2/4).

So, unless I am missing something here, what's the purpose of continuing on with the tests, especially if there is a risk of damage?

 

[Doxquzme Premium Member]

All we know at this point is that they are filtered, we still don't know how. BUT...

Since we now know they are filtered leads, I'll see what the best budget options you have. Forget about trying to mount the tweeter where the JBL's were mounted with a bracket, it's never going to be the same and and would be much easier to drill a simple drill hole, run a wire from the tweeter lead up through the package tray and mount a surface mountable tweeter (in a component set) next to the replacement 6x9s on the rear package tray, very easy and something that you most certainly can do. Since you don't want to test it from the amp, to be safe, we must use 2 ohm speakers front a back. If the filters (crossovers, frequency dividers, caps or coils, all the same) happen to be inline and not electronic, the factory speaker being 2 ohms and designed for those filters, 2 ohms speakers are a must. I'm checking for either 6.5" rounds (with the use of a 6x9 to 6.5 adapter) or 6x9s, all rated at 2 ohms, nothing else.

 

[Doxquzme Premium Member]

The Alpine's used in the blog I can get for like $65-70, but the ohm rating on them is a bit of an unknown (as they seem to be listed as 2/4).

The Alpine's that I found, are 4 ohm and should not be used on an inline 2ohm filter. It completely changes how the speaker reacts to the filter (changes the crossover frequency). AND, if it happens that the filters are electronic, you still have the benefit of the output provided by the 2 ohm speakers.

 

[BenH]

All we know at this point is that they are filtered, we still don't know how. BUT...

Since we now know they are filtered leads, I'll see what the best budget options you have. Forget about trying to mount the tweeter where the JBL's were mounted with a bracket, it's never going to be the same and and would be much easier to drill a simple drill hole, run a wire from the tweeter lead up through the package tray and mount a surface mountable tweeter (in a component set) next to the replacement 6x9s on the rear package tray, very easy and something that you most certainly can do. Since you don't want to test it from the amp, to be safe, we must use 2 ohm speakers front a back. If the filters (crossovers, frequency dividers, caps or coils, all the same) happen to be inline and not electronic, the factory speaker being 2 ohms and designed for those filters, 2 ohms speakers are a must. I'm checking for either 6.5" rounds (with the use of a 6x9 to 6.5 adapter) or 6x9s, all rated at 2 ohms, nothing else.

I mean 6x9s are called so because they are 6x9 and the tweeter bracket housing is ovular and fits directly on top of the edge of the foam. So, I think it is not unlikely that it fit on another speaker. This to me sounds more likely than mounting the tweeters somewhere else. The top of the rear deck, as in the plastic piece that sits on top of the trunk space in the back of the car has molded cutouts and grills for the existing speakers and very little clearance for anything else. So I'm not sure how you are going to mount tweeters elsewhere and then what? Cut out opening in my top deck for the sound to come from?
I just don't understand where you are going here....

Also, what exactly is the issue with the filters being inline or electronic (which I think they are the latter if the amp is doing it), and the resistance?

We already know that the blogpost guy used the coaxial Alpines without issue, and the youtube guy recommends the Alpine S-S69C which appear also be rated at 4 ohm.

I realize that a higher resistance might lower my volume, but is that the only risk we are talking here which makes the filtering an issue?