GUN Enthusiasts, Come!!

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

You misread. He said "If a sawed off was legal, I'd tend to agree". I don't think he was referring to the shot dispersion, but to the fact that a shorter gun is much easier to maneuver in close quarters.

Exactly correct, thanks.

 

[Rashaddd 5,000+ posts]

I make my living as an audio engineer so protecting my hearing is paramount to preserving my livelyhood. You don't shoot to "scare" an intruder or "alert" the neighbors. You shoot to stop the threat. Keep shooting until the threat is stopped. If there is no threat, you dont' shoot just to "scare" or "alert".

lmao....oh noez, dont shoot me, I'll go deafz!

not to mention firing a gun without hearing protection in the rare circumstance that your house is broken into while you are home is in no way going to make you go deaf...eskimos use hunting rifles without protection daily from when they are little, and they still have decent hearing into their 20's-30's...unless your house gets hit every other day, your ears will be fine.

And seriously, if you have people coming to try and kill you every other day, you have bigger problems to worry about //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

For the average person? I'd say they are equal.
For me? Well, let's just say they wouldn't get close enough to find out! //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif Actually anyone with any training would choose to disarm (like you would have a choice) an opponent with a handgun, of course this goes to the tactics side of the discussion and isn't what the OP was asking, but a longer weapon allows more leverage to be applied by both parties while the holder gets to choose how he/she holds the weapon. Myself, I would rather be at the muzzle end of a handgun during an altercation. Definitely not the muzzle end of a rifle or shotgun.

you're an idiot.

Do you have any common sense? The FBI and SWAT have a numbers advantage as well as the element of surprise in their favor. They also wear body armor and helmets, do you wear that to bed. Don't compare situations that have nothing to do with each other.//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif:laugh:

not to mention they are ****ing trained to do this...Didyouhearthat? when you go through swat close quarter combat training, then maybe you can suggest that it is a superior weapon...I'm sure there are people who would argue a sword is most advantageous...which may be true if they are some kind of ninja out of an action movie...not the average joe.

 

[davescomptips 10+ year member]

you're an idiot.

Exactly what is so idiotic about what I said?

 

[Rashaddd 5,000+ posts]

The point is alot of you have this 'leave the dirt bag bleeding on my carpet' attitude... I hope you never have to truly face this situation. Id greatly settle for the cops showing up and not finding ME bleeding on my carpet. And if you think thats not possible, be it with your pistol, shotgun or assault rifle... you are only fooling yourselves.

It's because they're a bunch of ethugs who have no idea what it's like to actually experience something like an armed break-in

personally, I find my rocket launcher pretty effective. Kills regardless of armor and has a silencer so i dont fvck up my hearing, plus I can kinda just point in the general direction of the bad guy which is a big advantage when I'm groggy in the middle of the night

 

[DidUHearThat? 10+ year member]

I own most weapons we've mentioned here. If I wke up in the middle of the night and hear/recognize an intruder is in my home, do I grab for the AR I apparently have stuffed under my bed, loaded, or a pistol?

Why do you keep loaded guns under your bed? I don't. If I am surprised I will respond with the pistol that is kept loaded in my hip holster by my bed.

In a civil and non-emergency situation like talking in this thread, its easy to say you'd grab a rifle, apply the silencer,

Apply the silencer? who said that? Why are you assembling parts while someone is comming to kill you? If you didn't prepare before hand you SOL now buddy. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

dial 911 on your blackberry

or I would just push the police button on my alarm panel next to my gun safe in my bedroom.

while simultaneously head shotting the intruder by utilizing your skills of dark-death learned from playing Halo 4.

That's another video game refrence right? I've heard of that one. You must play alot of them. I'm not familar with them, but I guess that's just another ad homineim attack in place of actual facts as a rebutal.

But in reality you are going to want to have something you can conceal easily, yet produce quickly.

Why conceal? I have no need to conceal if I hear someone breaking into my house in your middle of the night scenario.

A rifle simply falls short in comparison to a pistol in this regard, yes even a shotgun.

Perhaps for you. I don't keep a loaded rifle by my bed. So if I'm surprised it will be a pistol. If I notice things are going down I'm getting the carbine out. There's an old saying "a pistol is for fighting your way to the carbine".

Once I have this weapon in my hands, am I looking at a full frontal assault type of situation, or more of a duck and cover? Most people will revert to the latter.

You say you have all these guns, but you don't seem to know much about them. First, you seem unaware of the ballistic advantages of the AR in CQB, and now your clearly unaware of basic tactics. I suggest any local defensive carbine course and/or some time in 3 gun matches. Your local shooting range has them every month. The basic idea is you move from cover to cover or "shoot n' scoot".

Is a rifle, shotgun, or pistol the most easily maneuverable in close quarters?

A hangun at arms length is about the same as holding a carbine. I don't know why you are so afraid of the concept. I suggest you try it. Perhaps some mixed MA, grappling or Judo can help you with your fear.

Are you going be using your scope in your hallway?

You really don't know much about guns do you? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

Do you require a rifle barrel in order to hit your target from across your livingroom?

Again showing you don't know much about your guns. The 16" barrel is needed for the ballistics issue to relliably achieve fragmentation velocity. It is not a "magic boom stick".

Maybe you have a reason why you'd prefer a weapon that requires both hands to operate in that situation...?

Does your AR have buttons on the foregrip that you have to manipulate with the left hand in order to fire? Mine doesn't. I have no problem firing it with one hand. As opposed to my pump shotgun that does require two hands. Most people can't hit a man sized target at 15 feet with a pistol under stress. Most shots will miss. Including cops. It's alot harder than it seems.

The point is alot of you have this 'leave the dirt bag bleeding on my carpet' attitude...

Yes, it's called the "winning mindset". Your statement of "scare him off" and "alert" the neighbors are classic indicators you lack the winning mindset and you will fail to act under pressure. Again I suggest the carbine course and they will expalin that term to you in great detail. A homeless guy stealing food from the kitchen is not a threat. A dirtbag entering my bedroom, at o'dark thrity, with a weapon WILL become a carpet stain.

I hope you never have to truly face this situation.

I have. I'm still here.

Id greatly settle for the cops showing up and not finding ME bleeding on my carpet.

If your plan is to wait for the cops, that is how they may find you. "When seconds count, the Police are only 10 minutes away."

And if you think thats not possible, be it with your pistol, shotgun or assault rifle... you are only fooling yourselves.

On that point we agree. That is why I will take as many precautions as possible to prevent that from happening and have a plan, training and the tools to gain advantage and win. Fighting fair is for losers.

 

[Rashaddd 5,000+ posts]

Most people can't hit a man sized target at 15 feet with a pistol under stress. Most shots will miss. Including cops. It's alot harder than it seems.

maybe if you're retarded, the biggest problem is when this man sized target also has a gun and is firing back at you

 

[Rashaddd 5,000+ posts]

I'd also like to point out that the layout of your house can make just as much a difference as the type of gun you choose, but I doubt when you were buying your house you were thinking about that

 

[DidUHearThat? 10+ year member]

lmao....oh noez, dont shoot me, I'll go deafz!
not to mention firing a gun without hearing protection in the rare circumstance that your house is broken into while you are home is in no way going to make you go deaf...eskimos use hunting rifles without protection daily from when they are little, and they still have decent hearing into their 20's-30's...unless your house gets hit every other day, your ears will be fine.

Decent? Into thier 20's and 30's? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/eek.gif.771b7a90cf45cabdc554ff1121c21c4a.gif You won't make a living as 40 year old audio engineer with that attitude.

And seriously, if you have people coming to try and kill you every other day, you have bigger problems to worry about //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

You seem to be unaware of the huge difference in muzzle blast between firing a gun indoors vs outdoors. If your waiting till your deaf to begin taking precautions to protect your hearing it's too late. Each instance causes permanent hearing loss. I want to protect my hearing. So what? I'm not going to tell you you can't play your music loud, you can't tell me I can't use a silencer to protect my hearing.

In europe silencers are frequently required when hunting or even target shooting. It is considered rude to hunt within earshot of people without a silencer even when its legal to do so. They sell silencers at the harware store.

 

[Louisiana_CRX 5,000+ posts]

shoot first ask questions later....

 

[DidUHearThat? 10+ year member]

maybe if you're retarded, the biggest problem is when this man sized target also has a gun and is firing back at you

That's the facts, jack. Most shots fired by cops miss thier target. Most shots fired at cops miss thier target. Most shots fired in self defense miss thier target. Most shots fired by dirtbags durring a crime miss their target.

Most people think it's easy to hit a man sized target at close range. Until you've spent some time at the range and actually tired to do it. On the internet everyone can shoot 2" groups offhand at 50 yards, but I've never seen that kind of accuracy at the range. Under stress, obviously everyone shoots much worse.

I'd also like to point out that the layout of your house can make just as much a difference as the type of gun you choose, but I doubt when you were buying your house you were thinking about that

I designed and built my home (well I paid a draftsman to draw it and a contractor to build it). I did consider it, but it did not effect the design much, except in planing where the safe and alarm panel, was going to go. Also security lighting, fencing and dog areas.

 

[Rashaddd 5,000+ posts]

That's the facts, jack. Most shots fired by cops miss thier target. Most shots fired at cops miss thier target. Most shots fired in self defense miss thier target. Most shots fired by dirtbags durring a crime miss their target.
Most people think it's easy to hit a man sized target at close range. Until you've spent some time at the range and actually tired to do it. On the internet everyone can shoot 2" groups offhand at 50 yards, but I've never seen that kind of accuracy at the range. Under stress, obviously everyone shoots much worse.

At a range I can consistently get ~12" groupings if not better at 15 yards with a glock 45

We're talking about a much bigger target, at 1/3 of the distance, and probably a gun with a lot less recoil

 

[BobbyDD 10+ year member]

Why do you keep loaded guns under your bed? I don't. If I am surprised I will respond with the pistol that is kept loaded in my hip holster by my bed.Apply the silencer? who said that? Why are you assembling parts while someone is comming to kill you? If you didn't prepare before hand you SOL now buddy. :laughr I would just push the police button on my alarm panel next to my gun safe in my bedroom. That's another video game refrence right? I've heard of that one. You must play alot of them. I'm not familar with them, but I guess that's just another ad homineim attack in place of actual facts as a rebutal. Why conceal? I have no need to conceal if I hear someone breaking into my house in your middle of the night scenario. Perhaps for you. I don't keep a loaded rifle by my bed. So if I'm surprised it will be a pistol. If I notice things are going down I'm getting the carbine out. There's an old saying "a pistol is for fighting your way to the carbine".

You say you have all these guns, but you don't seem to know much about them. First, you seem unaware of the ballistic advantages of the AR in CQB, and now your clearly unaware of basic tactics. I suggest any local defensive carbine course and/or some time in 3 gun matches. Your local shooting range has them every month. The basic idea is you move from cover to cover or "shoot n' scoot". A hangun at arms length is about the same as holding a carbine. I don't know why you are so afraid of the concept. I suggest you try it. Perhaps some mixed MA, grappling or Judo can help you with your fear. You really don't know much about guns do you? :laugh:Again showing you don't know much about your guns. The 16" barrel is needed for the ballistics issue to relliably achieve fragmentation velocity. It is not a "magic boom stick".Does your AR have buttons on the foregrip that you have to manipulate with the left hand in order to fire? Mine doesn't. I have no problem firing it with one hand. As opposed to my pump shotgun that does require two hands. Most people can't hit a man sized target at 15 feet with a pistol under stress. Most shots will miss. Including cops. It's alot harder than it seems.

Yes, it's called the "winning mindset". Your statement of "scare him off" and "alert" the neighbors are classic indicators you lack the winning mindset and you will fail to act under pressure. Again I suggest the carbine course and they will expalin that term to you in great detail. A homeless guy stealing food from the kitchen is not a threat. A dirtbag entering my bedroom, at o'dark thrity, with a weapon WILL become a carpet stain. I have. I'm still here.If your plan is to wait for the cops, that is how they may find you. "When seconds count, the Police are only 10 minutes away."On that point we agree. That is why I will take as many precautions as possible to prevent that from happening and have a plan, training and the tools to gain advantage and win. Fighting fair is for losers.

That's the first smart thing you've posted in this thread. Strangely enough, most home invasions or robberies are unannounced and are, in fact, a surprise at the time.

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

Why do you keep loaded guns under your bed? I don't. If I am surprised I will respond with the pistol that is kept loaded in my hip holster by my bed.

Nice comprehension you have there. Im surprised, you are usually sharper than this. My point was that keeping loaded rifle under, on, near or around your bed... and producing it in an emergency, is impractical as compared to a pistol.

Tell me, if you are arguing with me that a rifle is a better home defense purchase for middle of the night intruders, why do you have pistol as your weapon of choice? Cant afford rifle, or just dont listen to your own advice. I do have to wonder how you dont see the massive flaw in your argument that is you yourself dont even practice what you preach, you in fact practice what I preach (chose a pistol). Maybe you meant to argue with someone else, and keep quoting me on accident?

Apply the silencer? who said that? Why are you assembling parts while someone is comming to kill you? If you didn't prepare before hand you SOL now buddy. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

I was making a joke to show that in a situation where you wake up ion the middle of the night to realize you have an intruder, quick and easy access to a working weapon is important. But you have decided to take everything I say literal, instead of trying to understand my meaning. I guess I dont mind explaining myself, once.

That's another video game refrence right? I've heard of that one. You must play alot of them. I'm not familar with them, but I guess that's just another ad homineim attack in place of actual facts as a rebutal.

And I guess that's another example of your piss poor comprehension of my points. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

Why conceal? I have no need to conceal if I hear someone breaking into my house in your middle of the night scenario.

Yes, I obviously meant you'll want to conceal-carry that weapon while searching your house for the burglar. Way to comprehend!

I dont leave loaded weapons of any sort sitting round in plain sight, not even in my own bedroom. Maybe Im just odd that way, or maybe you aren't even trying to understand what Im saying.

I don't keep a loaded rifle by my bed. So if I'm surprised it will be a pistol.

Do you not see the complete irony in this statement? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif:laugh: Yes, please continue telling me why a rifle is a better choice for home defense, while you yourself use a pistol, for the exact reasons I cite. Easy to conceal. And easy to produce in an emergency.

You say you have all these guns, but you don't seem to know much about them. First, you seem unaware of the ballistic advantages of the AR in CQB, and now your clearly unaware of basic tactics. I suggest any local defensive carbine course and/or some time in 3 gun matches.

I get it now. You want to tell us all how much you know about tactics. I guess Im ignorant of firearms, and tactics, because I disagree with you. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif Quit assuming you know me or my knowledge, you dont.

If you'd like to present a case as to why you yourself should have an AR next to your bed, instead of that holstered pistol you actually do have, Id be glad to listen to your reasoning. But if you just want to claim you are right because you think you are god's gift to guns, or think you know me, then I likely wont waste any more of my time.

The fact that we are talking about what the average guy should buy/keep for home defense of middle of the night intruders, and you bring up competitive matches and 'shoot n scoot' just shows how detached you really are from this topic.

A hangun at arms length is about the same as holding a carbine. I don't know why you are so afraid of the concept. I suggest you try it. Perhaps some mixed MA, grappling or Judo can help you with your fear.

Finally an actual point, congrats.
A pistol must be held at arm's length at all times, right? A pistol must be held with both hands at all times to remain effective, like a rifle, right? Rifles are just as easy to fire around a corner, right? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif Holding a pistol one handed is no more maneuverable than holding a 2-handed rifle... that's seriously your point? Let me guess, you only shoot a pistol 2 handed, for stability... or you think you can shoot a rifle one handed easily. And yet you chose a pistol for your own defense.

As for your judo/fear comment, what was it you said... oh yeah... "I guess that's just another ad hominem attack in place of actual facts as a rebuttal". (quote only altered for spelling purposes)

You really don't know much about guns do you? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

I make the point that your home is not the venue needed for the long range characteristics of a rifle, and your reply is 'you dont know much about guns do you'. I would suggest you disagreeing with that statement shows either your ignorance to guns, tactics, or my point. So keep up with the smart *** replies about my knowledge when you cant even seem to follow what Im saying. Seriously, I find it quite amusing.

Again showing you don't know much about your guns. The 16" barrel is needed for the ballistics issue to relliably achieve fragmentation velocity. It is not a "magic boom stick".

Again showing you dont know much about wtf Im talking about. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

I guess the only effective weapon in a home invasion is a rifle whose bullet reaches fragmentation velocity, right? So why, again, do you have a holstered pistol next to your bed instead of a gun rack mounted above it with an AR? Let me guess, you will ignore my actual point, and delve into why screwing a gun rack to your wall shows I dont know much about guns. lmao! I crack myself up.

If we were to listen to you, Im suggesting rifles are a "magic boomstick". You aren't even trying to discern my point or remain civil, you appear to be just wanting to act like an *** and spin things to fit your own agenda. Can you give me a good reason why I should take any more of your opinions in this thread seriously? Maybe if I stay long enough, you will be so kind as to share some of the audio engineering SWAT/ATF combat training with the rest of the class...? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

Does your AR have buttons on the foregrip that you have to manipulate with the left hand in order to fire? Mine doesn't. I have no problem firing it with one hand. As opposed to my pump shotgun that does require two hands. Most people can't hit a man sized target at 15 feet with a pistol under stress. Most shots will miss. Including cops. It's alot harder than it seems.

I love this part or your post. The part where you tell us you can shoot your AR one-handed, nd then follow up that thought by telling us how poor of aim the average person has with a pistol under duress. I suspect I dont even need to explain yet another glaring flaw in your logic, but ill do it anyway, out of sheer pleasure. If your opinion is that the average person's aim is bad with pistol under duress, what makes you think his aim will not be worsened by trying to shoot a rifle, one handed, in close quarters? Yes, I can and have shot my AR one-handed, easily. Doesn't mean Id rather be doing that down my hallways than squeezing off rounds out of one of my pistols. Think man... dont just type.

Yes, it's called the "winning mindset".

I call it over-confidence. And yes, Im fully aware an over-confident person would call it mere confidence.

Your statement of "scare him off" and "alert" the neighbors are classic indicators you lack the winning mindset and you will fail to act under pressure.

I call it considering all the options. Would I rather alert my neighbors and family of the conflict by hearing the gunshots, or would I rather risk the consequences of them not learning soon enough, out of fear my ears wouldnt stop ringing if I had to shoot someone?

Your interpretation of my alert and scare him off points: "Golly gee Id fire 3 shots into the ceiling and then hide under my bed till the cops came". I find your inability to understand my basic point here, that a loud noise when someone is breaking into your house has many advantages, quite hilarious. Please keep attacking me, my intelligence, and my experience, when you cant even comprehend my points. This started with me pointing out that during a home invasion, you want loud noises that would alert neighbors or family members, lets not forget that.

The 'scare them away' comment... for someone who claims to know so much about tactics, Im amazed you have not considered the fear that runs through a person's mind when they are being shot at. I mentioned you want the bang to alert people, and possibly scare the guy away rather than use a silencer, and you reply that you think my point was I would ever shoot merely intending to scare him off.

You are normally a pretty smart guy, so Im gonna work through this with you. You admit that the average person would have poor aim under a home invasion situation, so missing is a real possibility. But when I mention that the noise of the gun is a tool to help scare the criminal off, you instead of assuming Im posing a realistic argument that includes the possible misses and subsequent fright/flee of the intruder, assume Im suggesting Id shoot for no other reason to scare, and then tell me my tactics **** blah blah blah. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/*******.gif.a649d21efc0d1fd4890a6428166586c1.gif

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

Again I suggest the carbine course and they will expalin that term to you in great detail.

I bet you were the teacher's pet when you took the class, weren't you. "Oh oh, pick me pick me, I know I know!" Im glad the class gave you this feeling of superiority and experience. I bet you are a pretty bad *** audio engineer. Oh, except when shots might be fired indoors, then you'll be running for your ear plugs instead. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

I have. I'm still here.

Frankly, I dont believe you. Most people who go through this type of situation come out of it with much more cautious and serious approach to it than 'the dirtbag will be lying on my carpet bleeding'. And, if you HAVE been involved in shooting with a home intruder, I believe you'd be giving better advice than go out and buy an AR and take a carbine class. I also think you wouldn't be so resistant to seeing so many of my points as to why a pistol makes for a better choice than a rifle. Even though you make the same choice I do, in your own home. Did that carbine defense class teach you what the term hypocrite means?

If your plan is to wait for the cops, that is how they may find you. "When seconds count, the Police are only 10 minutes away."

Where did I say wait for the cops, or the family, or the neighbors? I said alert them, it is you who assumes I meant to come rescue me. lol Again, your comprehension lacks, big time. Try harder, I deserve a better counter-argument than you have given so far. I expect more from you.

My point in being happy the cops didnt find ME dead on the floor was to suggest the seriousness of the situation, and to not assume I couldn't end up the victim, even with the right weapon, and the right training. Again, if you really are a survivor of such a situation, I would expect you to understand. But clearly you dont, why is that? Because you have either never been through what you imply, or you are just a naturally arrogant person. You show alot arrogance on these message boards, perhaps that's no so far from the true you.

You seem to be unaware of the huge difference in muzzle blast between firing a gun indoors vs outdoors. If your waiting till your deaf to begin taking precautions to protect your hearing it's too late. Each instance causes permanent hearing loss. I want to protect my hearing. So what? I'm not going to tell you you can't play your music loud, you can't tell me I can't use a silencer to protect my hearing.

I cant tell you not to, but our government can. You clearly own guns, where's your certificate for silencer, since its so easy? Insuring your career as an audio engineer is not worth the $900? Haven't gotten around to it yet? Or maybe its just another one of your do as you say, not as you do arguments.

In europe silencers are frequently required when hunting or even target shooting. It is considered rude to hunt within earshot of people without a silencer even when its legal to do so. They sell silencers at the harware store.

Its funny you portray yourself as an expert, yet you seem completely oblivious to the reasons why silencers are so difficult to obtain for the average citizen. Or you simply chose to ignore them.

In Europe huh? You imply all of Europe is this way, when the truth is only a few countries allow them for hunting. Many European countries are just as strict as the US on silencers, some even more so.

Who would have guessed your maximum number of words allowed per post was 10,000.

 

[BobbyDD 10+ year member]

That is a looong ass post. I agree with all of it though.//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif