For the last time, PLEASE: clipping does NOT blow speakers/subwoofers

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif I regret making this thread now.

But to answer your question George, I fail to see how an amp is producing 1500wrms to a 2kwrms sub, and even when it's clipping, it's still producing 1500w. That is impossible. Perhaps I don't understand what you're saying, which is very likely, but nevertheless, I'm intrigued by it.

 
I have a question. So say your clipping an amp, that will cause the amp to put out more power, right? So your saying that its just the amp putting out more power than a given sub can take if the amp is too powerful? So its not the clipping thats blowing it, its the extra garbage power? If that made sense?

 
]Too much power is the ONLY thing that will destroy a well built speaker. Too high a peak power can cause it to move too far, and cause mechanical failure. Too much RMS power for too long will cause thermal failure.  

A clipped signal will not damage any speaker, if it is at a level low enough so that the heat can be dissipated, and it doesn't move far enough to mechanically damage it.

Take a square wave source signal from any number of test CDs, and play it through your system at a low volume. If you have a power supply on the system, you can play that 100% clipped signal indefinitely, and the system will never miss a beat.

As Rob said, a square wave is not made up of positive and negative DC components. The true makeup of a square wave is the fundamental frequency signal, combined with all of the harmonics of that fundamental.The combination of the many different, but related, sine waves results in a square wave.

You can prove this for yourself by running a low frequency square wave signal into a variable crossover, and look at the output on an oscilloscope. with the crossover bypassed, the square wave will be perfect. But, engage the low pass filter, and begin bringing it down towards the fundamental frequency, and the wave shape begins to look like a slightly clipped sine wave. If you turn the crossover point all the way down to the fundamental frequency, the scope will display a perfect sine wave.

Just something for those with nothing better to do this weekend...
The only thing that thermally damages speakers is power... more specifically: average power over time.
I'll explain...

If you take a given amplifier, let's say 100 watts and operate it just below clipping with music material, the "Crest Factor" of the amplifier's output is equivalent to the "Crest Factor" of the program material.

"Crest Factor" is the difference between the average level of the signal and its peak level. For example, a pure sine wave has a "crest factor" of 3dB, meaning that it's peak level is 3dB higher than its average level. We all know that 3dB represents a power factor of 2, so another way to look at it is that the peak power of the signal is twice that of its average level. So, if we play a sine wave on our 100 watt amplifier, just below its clipping level, the average power (over time) the speaker is needing to dissipate is 50 watts.

A true square wave, by comparison, has a crest factor of 0db, so it has equal average and peak power. Our 100 watt amplifier, playing a square wave, unclipped, into our speaker requires that the speaker dissipates 100 watts of power (twice the heat as a sine wave).

Music has a significantly higher crest factor than sine waves or square waves. A highly dynamic recording (Sheffield Lab, Chesky, etc.) typically has a crest factor of 20dB or more, meaning that its average power is 100 times lower than its peak power. So, if we play our 100 watt amplifier just below clipping with the typical audiophile recording our speaker is only needing to dissipate 1 watt of average power over time.

Modern commercial recordings typically exhibit crest factors of around 10dB, meaning that the average power is 10 times lower than the peak power. So, our 100 watt amp just below clipping would deliver an average power over time of 10 watts that the speaker has to dissipate.

Okay, so what happens when we clip the amplifier (which we all do at times). When the amplifier enters into clipping, the peak power no longer increases, but here's the KEY... THE AVERAGE POWER CONTINUES TO INCREASE. We can often tolerate a fair amount of clipping... as much as 10 dB or more above clipping with a reasonably dynamic recording... a bit less with a compressed commercial recording.

So, if we turn the volume up 10dB higher than the clipping level with our Sheffield Lab recording, we have now reduced the crest factor of the signal reaching the speakers by 10dB... so instead of needing to dissipate 1 watt average, we are asking the speaker to dissipate 10 watts average, and we're probably ok.

If we turn up the volume 6dB past clipping on a compressed commercial recording (or bass music recording), we have taken the crest factor of the signal from a starting point of 10dB to only 4dB, asking the speaker to dissipate an average power of 40 watts instead of 10 watts... that's FOUR TIMES the average power, which generates four times the heat.

SO, in most cases, the reason clipping can damage a speaker really has nothing to do with anything other than an increase in average power over time. It's really not the shape of the wave or distortion... it's simply more power over time.

When someone plays Bass Mekanik clean (unclipped) on a 1000 watt amplifier the average power is 100 watts (10dB crest factor). You can also make 100 watts average with Bass Mekanik by heavily clipping a 200 watt amplifier.

If someone is blowing a woofer with 200 watts of power due to a lack of restraint with the volume control... they will blow it even faster with a 1000 watt amplifier because they will probably turn it up even more and now they have more power to play with... this is the recipe for aroma of voice coil.

When woofers are rated for power, an unclipped signal is assumed. We use test signal with a crest factor of 6dB for power testing and can run a speaker at its rated power for hours and hours on end without thermal or mechanical failure. For example, a W1v2 can dissipate 150 watts average power for eight hours or more with signal peaks of 600 watts. So, we rate the speaker for 150W continuous power. This way, when a customer needs to choose an amp for it, they will hopefully choose one that can make about 150 W clean power... Even if they clip the bejeezus out of that amplifier, it is unlikely that the speaker will fail thermally. This is a conservative method, but it needs to account for the high cabin temperatures in a car (think Arizona in the summer) which significantly impacts heat dissipation in the speaker. A top plate that starts at 150 degrees F is not as effective at removing heat as one that starts at 72 degrees F in the lab... and this affects the ramp up of heat in the coil.

DISCLAIMER: The frequency components of clipping can affect tweeters due to their low inductance and lack of low-pass filtering. Clipping essentially raises the average power of high frequencies to a point that can damage tweeters... Woofers and midranges couldn't care less about these high frequency components because their filtering and/or inherent inductance knocks that stuff out of the picture.

Best regards,

Manville Smith

JL Audio, Inc.
A clipped signal carries more average power than a non-clipped signal... this is the only aspect of it that affects a speaker thermally.
It doesn't matter if the signal is clipped before the amp at the preamp level or after the amp.

A sine wave can damage a speaker in a matter of seconds given enough power and in a matter of minutes at fairly moderate output... it depends on the impedance of the speaker at that particular frequency... if the impedance happens to be low, it might go up in smoke in a couple of minutes.
The fact that a signal is clipped does not make it inherently damaging... if the average power of the clipped signal is low it won't ever damage a speaker. At higher power levels, the fact that a clipped signal carries more average power over time can result in damage.
The fact that tweeters have low inductance, do not employ low-pass filters and have small, delicate voice coils makes them more susceptible to damage from a clipped signal than a woofer or mid.

Does that make sense?

It just points out that the old statement of an amp that is too small will damage speakers more than a more powerful amp is entirely dependent on the use of each amp... if you clip both amps to the same extent, the more powerful one will blow speakers faster.... but it is possible to make a small amp operated into clipping produce as much average power as an unclipped larger amp (even though the peak power is greater on the big amp).

When you clip an amp you not only increase distortion, you also compress the dynamic range of the signal... the distortion isn't what kills the speakers (except tweeters in some cases)... it's the dynamic range compression that really does it.

Best regards,

Manville Smith

JL Audio, Inc.
Only way a voicecoil burns up ... "prematurely" or otherwise ... is excessive electrical input power, converted to heat in the coil's resistance.
Now, since amplifiers are like voltage sources, power is ~V^2/R. So you've only got two options for explaining coil burn-up:

1. A surprisingly large RMS voltage may be delivered to the coil during amp clipping, as described (very well, in good detail) above. Well, "surprisingly large" ... to someone that hasn't gone through the calculations
wink.gif


2. The input impedance of the coil drops during clipping, allowing more current to flow and therefore more heat. I think there's a possibility of this, IF the sub reaches an excursion limit (motional impedance dropping to simply voicecoil resistance, allowing more current to flow through the coil, therefore more heat). But I sure don't see it from amplifier clipping.

Bottom line : Coils burn from excessive power, nothing to do with waveform shape. If you want to explain burned coils, you gotta explain where the extra power came from ... pure & simple
more here
 
//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif I regret making this thread now.
But to answer your question George, I fail to see how an amp is producing 1500wrms to a 2kwrms sub, and even when it's clipping, it's still producing 1500w. That is impossible. Perhaps I don't understand what you're saying, which is very likely, but nevertheless, I'm intrigued by it.
1) dont regret making this thread. im glad i saw it as ive been preaching the whole clipping thing since i learned it here. no offense to the forum, but im willing to believe electrical engineering proofs and ideas over some random people on a forum, so im glad this thread was made.

2) we could be misunderstanding each other, or i could have some info wrong lol. maybe my clamp was messed up or my dmm was no good (or their batteries). i know my dmm is a true rms meter, but is the clamp (which is a friends)? know what i mean. the error could very well be on my side as im more inclined to believe people who know about electrical engineering and its theories.

the bolded part is what i will try to answer. i dont know if the amp was clipping. i set the gains using -6db test tones and a digital multimeter and then getting my wattage value using -6db test tones and the dmm and a fluke ammeter. im assumed the 2 times or so that my btl got stinky was because the music amplitude was above what i used to set my gains. im assuming its clipping here.

so my thought process is, using sine waves the most ive gotten out of my kx2500 was about 1500-1600w at 3.9 ohms. i didnt expect to see it off of music, so i assumed i was actually sending the sub less wattage but a clipped signal, which is what i believe took the sub past thermal limits.

edit: wow thats long, and i dont expect anyone to actually read that.

 
1) dont regret making this thread. im glad i saw it as ive been preaching the whole clipping thing since i learned it here. no offense to the forum, but im willing to believe electrical engineering proofs and ideas over some random people on a forum, so im glad this thread was made.
2) we could be misunderstanding each other, or i could have some info wrong lol. maybe my clamp was messed up or my dmm was no good (or their batteries). i know my dmm is a true rms meter, but is the clamp (which is a friends)? know what i mean. the error could very well be on my side as im more inclined to believe people who know about electrical engineering and its theories.

the bolded part is what i will try to answer. i dont know if the amp was clipping. i set the gains using -6db test tones and a digital multimeter and then getting my wattage value using -6db test tones and the dmm and a fluke ammeter. im assumed the 2 times or so that my btl got stinky was because the music amplitude was above what i used to set my gains. im assuming its clipping here.

so my thought process is, using sine waves the most ive gotten out of my kx2500 was about 1500-1600w at 3.9 ohms. i didnt expect to see it off of music, so i assumed i was actually sending the sub less wattage but a clipped signal, which is what i believe took the sub past thermal limits.

edit: wow thats long, and i dont expect anyone to actually read that.
Ima go get me a sandwich then I'll sit down and read this novel //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

 
how is it not producing 1500w if i clamped it and saw it for myself? this happened with my btl and kx2500.1.
i burped my sub before and calmped it. the highest ive ever gotten was 1600w @ 3.9 ohms out of that amp. 3.9 was my lowest impedance of all the freq. i played it on music and have gotten the btl to stink up before.

i just dont get it, considering music is dynamic and it probably did even less power than that on most songs. im not saying you dont know what you're talking about so dont take offense, im just saying its not making sense to me.
Refer to my post on page 10 as to how it becomes higher than 1500w.

 
So lemme see if I have the right. You were feeding the speaker a metered 1500-1600 watts, and the sub is 2000wrms, and the speaker heated up? If the signal is undistorted, which means it's still delivering rated power, I don't see how that's possible unless your enclosure was either too large as sealed, or was tuned too low / too large as ported.

 
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