Experts: Please explain this phenomenon

[rc10mike 10+ year member]

Agreed.
Unless you were under a DF of 20 w/ the amp wired to 1ohm, the change in damping wouldn't be audible.

My initial estimation would be that you're now supplying the drivers with less power. Less power will result in 1) less distortion from the drivers and 2) better/more linear subbass integration with the rest of the system due to the decreased output.

Easily explains all of your subjective expressions about the change without needing to invoke any mysterious amplifier SQ voodoo.

I will add that I had to initially turn the gain up to equal the same "volume" I had at 1ohm.

I still ran things just as loud as I did @ 1ohm. Probably even louder since I thought they sounded like *** @ 1ohm and couldnt bear to listen to them very loud. I honestly wouldnt waste my time posting a thread to figure out why I heard a real difference if I really didnt!

Now with everything else being the same:

Shouldnt 800w @ 4 sound the same as 800w @ 1?

 

[TSGP]

Yes it will...if its an amp with a high damping factor and low s/n ratio at 1 ohm

Also just because the sticker says "800 at 4 ohm" doesn't mean thats what it does.

An amplifier doesn't half/double power every 2 ohms of resistance.

If you'll clamp that amplifier at 4 ohms you're way over 1000 watts, probobly closer to 2k...of course thats all relative to impedence rise of the enclosure.

 

[TSGP]

also its possible the voltage was getting so low that the amp was clipping and making it sound bad

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

I will add that I had to initially turn the gain up to equal the same "volume" I had at 1ohm.
I still ran things just as loud as I did @ 1ohm. Probably even louder since I thought they sounded like *** @ 1ohm and couldnt bear to listen to them very loud.

You can guesstulate and speculate. But the matter of fact is, from what I can tell, you really have no way of knowing the difference in actual applied power output. So you can not rule it out, and given the lax constraints placed on the comparison it's very easy to presume such a difference would occur.

This is where most of the "problems" with this type of discussion arise. People assume variables are equal, when in fact they have no way of verifying their accuracy. The best we can do is come up with the most "reasonable" estimate given the limited information provided and the limited amount of controls placed on the comparison. For example, we know the limits of damping factors affect on performance. We can estimate with fair accuracy that, given you are below the threshold of clipping and the amplifier was competently designed, amplifier distortion should be below audible thresholds in either scenario.

I honestly wouldnt waste my time posting a thread to figure out why I heard a real difference if I really didnt!

You'd be amazed at what your mind can tell you you're hearing //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

Seriously, you (or rather, we) can not rule out the possibility that you may have had a preconception that the 4ohm would sound better, and that is altering your perception of the sound.

"Audiophiles" suffer from this psycho-acoustical failing quite frequently.

Now with everything else being the same:
Shouldnt 800w @ 4 sound the same as 800w @ 1?

100% of the time.

 

[Beerdrnkr 5,000+ posts]

I will add that I had to initially turn the gain up to equal the same "volume" I had at 1ohm.
I still ran things just as loud as I did @ 1ohm. Probably even louder since I thought they sounded like *** @ 1ohm and couldnt bear to listen to them very loud. I honestly wouldnt waste my time posting a thread to figure out why I heard a real difference if I really didnt!

Now with everything else being the same:

Shouldnt 800w @ 4 sound the same as 800w @ 1?

Man, sorry to hear all these prick know-it-alls jump down your throat when you're just asking a question. People can throw all the numbers and theories they want but bottom line is, you know what you heard and it sounds better at 4ohms. Could you adjust the gain at 1ohm to get roughly about the same wattage?

 

[rc10mike 10+ year member]

Yes it will...if its an amp with a high damping factor and low s/n ratio at 1 ohm
Also just because the sticker says "800 at 4 ohm" doesn't mean thats what it does.

An amplifier doesn't half/double power every 2 ohms of resistance.

If you'll clamp that amplifier at 4 ohms you're way over 1000 watts, probobly closer to 2k...of course thats all relative to impedence rise of the enclosure.

Thats why I included the ~ symbol in there, I know its not exact.//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

also its possible the voltage was getting so low that the amp was clipping and making it sound bad

Doubtful, I could tell the difference even @ lower volumes.

Im not trying to start a huge fight here. I just want to get to the bottom of it.

So far I have:

Higher damping factor (which some people believe makes no difference).

Less distortion @ higher ohms.

Higher efficiency.

 

[rc10mike 10+ year member]

You can guesstulate and speculate. But the matter of fact is, from what I can tell, you really have no way of knowing the difference in actual applied power output. So you can not rule it out, and given the lax constraints placed on the comparison it's very easy to presume such a difference would occur.
This is where most of the "problems" with this type of discussion arise. People assume variables are equal, when in fact they have no way of verifying their accuracy. The best we can do is come up with the most "reasonable" estimate given the limited information provided and the limited amount of controls placed on the comparison. For example, we know the limits of damping factors affect on performance. We can estimate with fair accuracy that, given you are below the threshold of clipping and the amplifier was competently designed, amplifier distortion should be below audible thresholds in either scenario.

You'd be amazed at what your mind can tell you you're hearing //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

Seriously, you (or rather, we) can not rule out the possibility that you may have had a preconception that the 4ohm would sound better, and that is altering your perception of the sound.

"Audiophiles" suffer from this psycho-acoustical failing quite frequently.

100% of the time.

Once again If I didnt hear a true difference, I would have not asked the question "why"

My mind is not telling me anything, my ears are. I did this experiment thinking I would end up clipping the amp. I had no assumptions as to how much better it would sound.

It was a simple experiment, same car, hu, eq ta settings, same box, box position, etc, etc. Only difference was the wiring and gain.

I was never able to get the same sound @ 1ohm.

I never claimed to be an audiophile.

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

I just want to get to the bottom of it.

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/fyi.gif.9f1f679348da7204ce960cfc74bca8e0.gif

You will not get to the bottom of it by starting a thread on an internet forum as you did not have the proper controls and measurements in place while conducting your "experiment". It is that simple.

So far I have:
Higher damping factor (which some people believe makes no difference).

It's not a religion. Belief plays no role.

Many have demonstrated the insignificance of DF. It's physics and mathematics.

Less distortion @ higher ohms.

There is a serious design flaw with the amplifier, or your initial setup of the amplifier, for this to be possible.

And yet you ignored my entirely plausible, and thus far the most plausible (though certainly not the only plausible), explanation?

Once again If I didnt hear a true difference, I would have not asked the question "why"
My mind is not telling me anything, my ears are. I did this experiment thinking I would end up clipping the amp. I had no assumptions as to how much better it would sound.

It was a simple experiment, same car, hu, eq ta settings, same box, box position, etc, etc. Only difference was the wiring and gain.

I was never able to get the same sound @ 1ohm.

I never claimed to be an audiopile.

You don't have to be an audiophile to fall under the delusion of psychoacoustics. It was a simple example. And given you did not have any blind controls or ABX comparison in your experiment, you CAN NOT rule it out. Period.

As I previously stated, this is one of the many problems with "driveway" comparisons. None of the proper controls are in place to arrive at any definitive conclusion.

 

[rc10mike 10+ year member]

If you need to rely on numbers, theorys, scientific tests, and ABX to decide what your ears can decide, then we are simply on different levels.//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

 

[rc10mike 10+ year member]

The controls are everything that I already stated. The variables are the wiring and gain. The hypothesis is that I would clip the amp. The conclusion is that it sounded better. Scientific enough?

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

If you need to rely on numbers, theorys, scientific tests, and ABX to decide what your ears can decide, then we are simply on different levels.//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

You're right, we are. You apparently don't comprehend how those theories, numbers, scientifically valid comparisons and ABX testings correlate to what we hear //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

Audio reproduction is a science, not an art. It won't tell you what you'll subjectively "like", but it will certainly tell you what you will (and won't) hear.

 

[rc10mike 10+ year member]

You're right, we are. You apparently don't comprehend how those theories, numbers, scientifically valid comparisons and ABX testings correlate to what we hear //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif
Audio reproduction is a science, not an art. It won't tell you what you'll subjectively "like", but it will certainly tell you what you will (and won't) hear.

Sorry, Id rather hear the difference than see it on paper.

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

The controls are everything that I already stated. The variables are the wiring and gain. The hypothesis is that I would clip the amp. The conclusion is that it sounded better. Scientific enough?

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

Okay. What was the measured amplifier distortion in both scenarios? That would quickly eliminate one of the posed explanations. What was the applied power in both scenarios? Listening levels? Power input voltage? Did you have an ABX switcher so that you could listen to them both, at matched levels in the important categories, to determine if you could identify the differences without knowing which you were listening to a statistically significant number of times? Need I continue?

You apparently don't understand proper variable isolation and control, or what constitutes a variable.

Scientific methods be damned! My ears tell me everything I need to know!

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

Sorry, Id rather hear the difference than see it on paper.

And this is how people fall into horrible misconceptions and myths such as higher impedance sound better, class x sounds better than class y, etc etc etc //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

You're ears aren't as right as you think they are. And they certainly can not tell you why you are hearing a difference.

 

[tuomas 10+ year member]

This brings up a question for me. If an amp is set at 800w @ 1ohm will it have a bigger load on the electrical system than an amp set at 800w @ 4ohm? Or will the load be the same since the draw for power is consistent??