Difference between budget and high end amps

[miker 5,000+ posts]

it was a straight swap.
and i know its not know for sq. that was just an easy example for miker.

Okay thanks. I wish it were easy to tell what exactly any amp will do for you, because as we know all ratings aren't accurate

 

[helotaxi 5,000+ posts]

To summarize what RC said: If the amps measure below an audible threshold in power, frequency response, and THD, they will be audibly indistinguishable. The bottom line is that there is no magic to how an amp sounds. As long as the frequency response is good (that is the shortfall of some lower quality amps), the amp is kept below the threshold where it starts to introduce significant audible distortion (usually well short of clipping for some of the budget brands), and produces power, any amp will suffice.

Never knew that the Alpines in the GN were anything special other than really big top of the line Alpines from the day. He didn't build the GN either. He added a few tweaks later on but Speakerworks built the car and won the IASCA nationals with it at least twice before RC bought it IIRC.

 

[gunz4me2 10+ year member]

Quality amplifiers do not have as much of a sound difference as others are lead to believe. I've performed an experiment many times with amplifiers set up in the home powering some Klipsch HT speakers and none of my friends could tell the difference between a Cerwin Vega EXL 400.4, Soundstream Reference 700s, RF Power 351s, and several other amplifiers I owned. I limited the power output to 10 watts RMS per amplifier and faded front to rear on my test bench HU to switch the amplifiers out. I even level matched the output from a TIPS modified Linear Power 1502IQ and compared it to an unmodified 1502IQ with one amplifier on the left speaker and one amplifier on the right speaker. I couldn't tell a difference and no one else could either! That was my lesson learned in psychoacoustics.

If the amplifiers measure relatively close over their useful frequency reproduction range and produce relatively close amounts of clean, distortion/noise free, power, one will be hard pressed to tell the difference between two amplifiers. This goes double for an amplifier that is installed in the worst possible environment for audio reproduction, the automobile itself! The only hard part is finding those budget diamonds in the rough that give you the clean, distortion and noise free power!

 

[Bassin Buick]

I know that most of the cheap amps do not do rated power. However, some of the budget amps like Cadence (from what I've read) actually do rated power. So whats the difference between buying say a 500w rms monoblock from Cadence and something like a JL Slash 500/1 (or insert any good amp manufacturer)?
The biggest thing I assume is whether or not it does rated power, but then whats the reason for that huge price gap for those that do? If 2 amps legitimately put out the same amount of power would they not sound the same, or is there something I'm missing...

Look closely , pictures will answer all your questions. http://www.caraudio.com/forums/amplifiers/497616-crap-vs-quality.html

 

[appleyard 10+ year member]

According to Richard Clark, all amps sound the exact same.
Lol...what a joke. I'm going all Rockwood and Pyle on my next buildlog

IIRC no one had proven him wrong in the RC challenge. The offer still stands you might be the first one to prove it.

 

[cleansoundzz 10+ year member]

Quality amplifiers do not have as much of a sound difference as others are lead to believe. I've performed an experiment many times with amplifiers set up in the home powering some Klipsch HT speakers and none of my friends could tell the difference between a Cerwin Vega EXL 400.4, Soundstream Reference 700s, RF Power 351s, and several other amplifiers I owned. I limited the power output to 10 watts RMS per amplifier and faded front to rear on my test bench HU to switch the amplifiers out. I even level matched the output from a TIPS modified Linear Power 1502IQ and compared it to an unmodified 1502IQ with one amplifier on the left speaker and one amplifier on the right speaker. I couldn't tell a difference and no one else could either! That was my lesson learned in psychoacoustics.
If the amplifiers measure relatively close over their useful frequency reproduction range and produce relatively close amounts of clean, distortion/noise free, power, one will be hard pressed to tell the difference between two amplifiers. This goes double for an amplifier that is installed in the worst possible environment for audio reproduction, the automobile itself! The only hard part is finding those budget diamonds in the rough that give you the clean, distortion and noise free power!

Well said Chris. To add on to your post, I have tested several amplifiers in my car under the exact same listening conditions and in my opinion they all sounded the same. The quality of the speakers made more of a difference than the actual amp itself.

 

[Suicide Bobb 5,000+ posts]

IIRC no one had proven him wrong in the RC challenge. The offer still stands you might be the first one to prove it.

Well like a previous post-er said, he set them all up to sound the same. So he proved nothing.

 

[Suicide Bobb 5,000+ posts]

Quality amplifiers do not have as much of a sound difference as others are lead to believe. I've performed an experiment many times with amplifiers set up in the home powering some Klipsch HT speakers and none of my friends could tell the difference between a Cerwin Vega EXL 400.4, Soundstream Reference 700s, RF Power 351s, and several other amplifiers I owned. I limited the power output to 10 watts RMS per amplifier and faded front to rear on my test bench HU to switch the amplifiers out. I even level matched the output from a TIPS modified Linear Power 1502IQ and compared it to an unmodified 1502IQ with one amplifier on the left speaker and one amplifier on the right speaker. I couldn't tell a difference and no one else could either! That was my lesson learned in psychoacoustics.
If the amplifiers measure relatively close over their useful frequency reproduction range and produce relatively close amounts of clean, distortion/noise free, power, one will be hard pressed to tell the difference between two amplifiers. This goes double for an amplifier that is installed in the worst possible environment for audio reproduction, the automobile itself! The only hard part is finding those budget diamonds in the rough that give you the clean, distortion and noise free power!

Odd, because I performed the same tests as you did in my house, but hooked up to different speakers (Infinity Reference Standard 2.5's), and my results confirmed the exact opposite. Every amp I tested sounded different, some to greater extents then others. I compared them all at I would assume around 10-50wrms each (based on the volume, not a bench). In other words, it was not an EXACT comparison of sound level, but close enough to make no difference. I set all the gains at half and the crossovers at full pass.

I am a FIRM believer that different amps sound different. Maybe it's because of how revealing my speakers are (google "Infinity RS 2.5" and I'll think you'll understand what I mean), but still. Every amp I have tested, given that all of the amps I have ran for the most part are high quality o/s amps, has its own unique characteristics. The biggest differences I was able to note was the obvious THD, and the less obvious separation, imaging, coloration, and warmth/brightness.

 

[Haunz 10+ year member]

Odd, because I performed the same tests as you did in my house, but hooked up to different speakers (Infinity Reference Standard 2.5's), and my results confirmed the exact opposite. Every amp I tested sounded different, some to greater extents then others. I compared them all at I would assume around 10-50wrms each (based on the volume, not a bench). In other words, it was not an EXACT comparison of sound level, but close enough to make no difference. I set all the gains at half and the crossovers at full pass.
I am a FIRM believer that different amps sound different. Maybe it's because of how revealing my speakers are (google "Infinity RS 2.5" and I'll think you'll understand what I mean), but still. Every amp I have tested, given that all of the amps I have ran for the most part are high quality o/s amps, has its own unique characteristics. The biggest differences I was able to note was the obvious THD, and the less obvious separation, imaging, coloration, and warmth/brightness.

It might also have something to do with being stupid.....

 

[infamous_e46 5,000+ posts]

Thats why his multi award winning Speakerworks Grand National used expensive hand made Japanese Alpine amps, right?

http://www.caraudio.com/forums/car-audio-classifieds/497469-sq-alpine-v12s-old-school-cheap.html

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/sneaky.gif.7189749b3a3f769e8815b47e8ae87f88.gif

http://www.caraudio.com/forums/car-audio-classifieds/497469-sq-alpine-v12s-old-school-cheap.html

 

[VWBobby 10+ year member]

Odd, because I performed the same tests as you did in my house, but hooked up to different speakers (Infinity Reference Standard 2.5's), and my results confirmed the exact opposite. Every amp I tested sounded different, some to greater extents then others. I compared them all at I would assume around 10-50wrms each (based on the volume, not a bench). In other words, it was not an EXACT comparison of sound level, but close enough to make no difference. I set all the gains at half and the crossovers at full pass.
I am a FIRM believer that different amps sound different. Maybe it's because of how revealing my speakers are (google "Infinity RS 2.5" and I'll think you'll understand what I mean), but still. Every amp I have tested, given that all of the amps I have ran for the most part are high quality o/s amps, has its own unique characteristics. The biggest differences I was able to note was the obvious THD, and the less obvious separation, imaging, coloration, and warmth/brightness.

I have also found the same things myself. A lot of people on this forum seem to either be partially deaf, or they are not listening to the amp as much as they're listening to their sound material. I am partially deaf myself, but I can definitely, without a doubt, pick an amp out in a blind A/B test. Like I've stated many times on this forum, in the guitar and sound reinforcement world.....equipment has everything to do with your "tone". If anyone doesn't know an amp "colors" the tone or sound of your material....they are either deaf, or they're not pushing the limits of their equipment and just barely pushing it 50%. Any amp will sound OK at 50% output or less, but its when you get past that 50% when a good amp will shine. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif I'm not talking about gain settings either.

 

[Suicide Bobb 5,000+ posts]

I have also found the same things myself. A lot of people on this forum seem to either be partially deaf, or they are not listening to the amp as much as they're listening to their sound material. I am partially deaf myself, but I can definitely, without a doubt, pick an amp out in a blind A/B test. Like I've stated many times on this forum, in the guitar and sound reinforcement world.....equipment has everything to do with your "tone". If anyone doesn't know an amp "colors" the tone or sound of your material....they are either deaf, or they're not pushing the limits of their equipment and just barely pushing it 50%. Any amp will sound OK at 50% output or less, but its when you get past that 50% when a good amp will shine. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif I'm not talking about gain settings either.

Yeah, this too. But I still can pick all my amps out with under 50% of their power being dealt out.

In case I didn't already say so before, all the amps I tested were hooked up to the exact same source, pre-amp, wires, etc. Gains at 50%, full pass, same relative volume. I have an mp3 cd with about 100 songs on it, 75% of which I have on there for the sole purpose of identifying the characteristics of an amplifier/speakers/whatever I am A/B testing. I play short clips of the identifying parts of each of those 75ish songs on every amp I test. I have done this with well over 10 different amps (and even more speakers, but that's a different story). When asking others how they think their amp sounds (if they have the same one that I have tested), their conclusions are startlingly similar. Such has happened on more than one occasion.

If you still don't believe me, that's your own loss. Enjoy your Pyramid and Kenford equipment. I'll be running my o/s Sony amps. Obviously I'm not doing that for the "Sony" name. It wouldn't be because of reliability either, because I have two of the same XM-700a's, and one is blown. I'll be running that series of amps because of how they SOUND

 

[nstillmatic 10+ year member]

In response to this topic then (I'm the TC), who makes the cheapest amps that put out rated power? Both my amps are Sundowns but this is something I'd like to know for the average joe. It's definitely hard to tell which ones put out rated power just by looking at the box and specifications. Any tips?

 

[gunz4me2 10+ year member]

Those Vibe audio amplifiers at Sonic Electronix seem to be the diamond in the rough "budget" amplifier of the moment:

VIBE Audio LiteBox Bass 1 (LiteBox1) Monoblock Car Amplifier

VIBE Audio LiteBox Stereo 2 (LiteBox2) 2-Channel Amplifier

VIBE Audio LiteBox Stereo 4 (LiteBox4) 4-Channel Amplifier

They share the same basic design as the Arc Audio KS series and are manufactured by the same company, UBUY.

 

[helotaxi 5,000+ posts]

Well like a previous post-er said, he set them all up to sound the same. So he proved nothing.

Then you completely missed the point. He never claimed that they sounded the same, his claim was that if they measured the same with regard to power output, and frequency response and the THD was below 1%, you could not hear the difference. In other words there is no mystical quality that makes one amp capable of SQ nirvana and one amp a POS. All you need to know is contained in the FR, power and THD specs.