Can subs get unlouder if u turn too high?

[Phatillusion 5,000+ posts]

No matter how much you underpower/overpower your speakers, you will run into clipping/distortion somewhere along the way.

I am still sticking to my belief, until Zane or Ramos can come on here and explain otherwise. I have blown speakers with too little power, and have always believed that abusing the volume and gain controlsor was the reason.

 

[MikeofTulsa Moderator]

Originally posted by bigbassman  

that is NOT zane's info, that is a link from his page, to the EXACT same page that Jlaine linked on the first page.... //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif It does not belong to Zane, and will never belong to him... I hate to be a prick, but I have to give respect to the owner of the page, who worked his but off on it...

 

Thanks.

 

Loyd L.

sorry i just assumed it was zanes site....so what if its a link....still provides the information needed....

 

[RangerMan Premium Member]

Originally posted by Phatillusion

 

I am still sticking to my belief, until Zane or Ramos can come on here and explain otherwise. I have blown speakers with too little power, and have always believed that abusing the volume and gain controlsor was the reason.

I have to call you out on this one Phatillusion. You can't blow speakers from too little power. Ask zane, he will tell you the same. Sorry bud.//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/frown.gif.a3531fa0534503350665a1e957861287.gif

 

[Phatillusion 5,000+ posts]

ok so I stated it wrong, what I meant was I had too little power going to them, and I meant that abusing the volume/gain controls was the reason it blew, which was the result of clipping/distortion.

 

[Phatillusion 5,000+ posts]

check out this link from zane's tech site it should take care of this issue.....

If you want to get technical, he just said it's a link from zanes site, he never gave credit to zane.

 

[jlaine 10+ year member]

Originally posted by Phatillusion

 

I am still sticking to my belief, until Zane or Ramos can come on here and explain otherwise. I have blown speakers with too little power, and have always believed that abusing the volume and gain controlsor was the reason.

I am completely bewildered as to why you gentlemen cannot open your eyes and read the document provided. The man that produced that page, his name is Perry Babin, and he indeed works his rear off making that site what it is today, he also is the designer for our online magazine on my site. What is encased there will show you exactly what happens when you clip a waveform, and why it isn't clipping that kills anything, but power (again.)

The idea of holding your grounds until someone else tells you otherwise seems just bewildering to me, Phatillusion, please- go read through the information provided there, and if that isn't enough, I can get you a link to autosound 2000's technical briefing that covers this issue.

 

[Phatillusion 5,000+ posts]

What is encased there will show you exactly what happens when you clip a waveform, and why it isn't clipping that kills anything, but power (again.)

So let me use an example: Take a 300 wRMS sub, you power it with 200 wRMS. You turn the volume control all the way up, the sub sounds horrible, after listening to it for a while (month or so) the sub no longer works. Explain what happened. I am led to believe that clipping/distortion is the reason the sub no longer works, so with your theory explain why you believe that the sub is no longer working. Clipping in the aspect of itself, may not be the reason it blew, but clippin has to have something to do with it. The reason I believe this is: if you don't abuse your sub underpowering it, it should work fine. I have a friend who has an old RF 10" and believe me when I say old, its close to 10 years old or so. He has never had a problem with it, and he is underpowering it by quite a bit. He also knows his subs limit, and doesn't abuse the volume control. If you can give me a straight forward answer that proves it, such as graphs, or your own terms, then I can work with that. I'm not going to say I'm right every time, because nobody is, that is why most of us are here, to learn.

 

[ramos 5,000+ posts]

Okay let me throw my two cents in. If jlaine is the same jlaine from carsound he does know what he's talking about.

Okay first underpowering speakers will not cause damage.

Considerably overpowering can cause damage.

Now for the part I think everybocy is getting confused. Theoreticaly when an amp is driven to clipping (distortion) it produces about twice what it would clean. But at the same time this is happening the cone is not moving nearly as much. Which means not as much air is flowing through the voice coil. Which causes the voice coil to overheat. I thnk this is why everybody says distortion kills subs. I myself have said this before. The statement probably isn't the most accurate statement in the world. But driving your amps too clipping makes everything sound like a$$. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[jlaine 10+ year member]

Originally posted by Phatillusion

 

So let me use an example: Take a 300 wRMS sub, you power it with 200 wRMS. You turn the volume control all the way up, the sub sounds horrible, after listening to it for a while (month or so) the sub no longer works. Explain what happened. I am led to believe that clipping/distortion is the reason the sub no longer works, so with your theory explain why you believe that the sub is no longer working. Clipping in the aspect of itself, may not be the reason it blew, but clippin has to have something to do with it. The reason I believe this is: if you don't abuse your sub underpowering it, it should work fine. I have a friend who has an old RF 10" and believe me when I say old, its close to 10 years old or so. He has never had a problem with it, and he is underpowering it by quite a bit. He also knows his subs limit, and doesn't abuse the volume control. If you can give me a straight forward answer that proves it, such as graphs, or your own terms, then I can work with that. I'm not going to say I'm right every time, because nobody is, that is why most of us are here, to learn.

You see, therein lies the major issue.

There are 20 other variables that need to be taken into account.

Box size, air temperature, ported?, sealed?, music?, sweeps?, duration?

The severe issue brought to the front is if you are clipping straight sine waves, you are in for some hellacious trouble. The possibility of destroying a singular subwoofer based upon clipping music and the added heat generated(which believe it or not, 99% of us listen to our music clipped due to musical peaks and the inability of amplifiers and headroom), is very slim, to almost absurd. You do understand that the average subwoofer is about .5% efficient, so for every 100 watts of input power, you get about 1/2 of a watt of output, and 99.5 watts of heat in that coil.

It all boils down to thermal handling of the woofer, if you stay within it's generated thermal limitations, you are good to go, even if you use square waves!

It's just the ability to remove that heat from the coil that is the major concern that is brought up, clipping in the extreme sense, is nothing more than a nasty sound.

Ramos- one and only... I'm known by this name wherever I wander... //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

 

[Phatillusion 5,000+ posts]

So are you saying that a clipped/distorted signal from the amp, can carry much more power in terms of wattage than the amp is rated at? If so, yeah, I'll agree that too "unclean" power will kill the sub. So basically it is isn't the fact that your amp is clipping but the fact that it is "overheating" your sub. But, theoretically it happens becuase your amp is in fact clipping, but scientifically your sub is just getting too much unclean power.

This brings up another question:

You have an amp rated at 250 Wrms & 500 Wmax, (durable amp, does what it says) if you sent the amp into clipping, how many watts of unclean power, do you think that amp is capable of delivering?

 

[stones 10+ year member]

ZANE get your ass in here and set sh*t straight. I can see things from jlains point and everyone elses point of veiw. Technically an amp will put put out much more than its rated power when driven into clipping, when an amplifier is clipping it will start to put out DC voltage as well as AC voltage, DC voltage is translated direcly into heat when run though the voice coil of a speaker due to the fact that a speaker cannot reproduce a square waveform--Hence, burnt coils and blown speakers, but......

If you were to take a JLW7(for example) and run a channel from your cd player into it(18watts rms) and crank your head unit for all its worth untill the signal clips all to hell and starts putting out craploads of dc voltage the JLW7 will remain unharmed, WHY- because the voice coils thermal handling capalbilities have not been execceded, so tecnically everybodys right....... Come on, you all can see what Im talking about here right? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif

 

[RangerMan Premium Member]

Originally posted by stones ZANE get your ass in here and set sh*t straight. I can see things from jlains point and everyone elses point of veiw. Technically an amp will put put out much more than its rated power when driven into clipping, when an amplifier is clipping it will start to put out DC voltage as well as AC voltage, DC voltage is translated direcly into heat when run though the voice coil of a speaker due to the fact that a speaker cannot reproduce a square waveform--Hence, burnt coils and blown speakers, but......

If you were to take a JLW7(for example) and run a channel from your cd player into it(18watts rms) and crank your head unit for all its worth untill the signal clips all to hell and starts putting out craploads of dc voltage the JLW7 will remain unharmed, WHY- because the voice coils thermal handling capalbilities have not been execceded, so tecnically everybodys right....... Come on, you all can see what Im talking about here right? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif

Which is my mentality as well.

 

[jlaine 10+ year member]

Originally posted by Phatillusion So are you saying that a clipped/distorted signal from the amp, can carry much more power in terms of wattage than the amp is rated at? If so, yeah, I'll agree that too "unclean" power will kill the sub. So basically it is isn't the fact that your amp is clipping but the fact that it is "overheating" your sub. But, theoretically it happens becuase your amp is in fact clipping, but scientifically your sub is just getting too much unclean power.

 

This brings up another question:

 

You have an amp rated at 250 Wrms & 500 Wmax, (durable amp, does what it says) if you sent the amp into clipping, how many watts of unclean power, do you think that amp is capable of delivering?

Ahhh... in terms of factual testable "output", it's still doing 250wrms in terms of an AC waveform... it's the extra (for lack of a better term, this is what I call it) power under the curve that is the problem. You could *possibly* get a constant output of it's peak rating with the wave truncated from overdriving, so 500W of potential. Extra heat, no added motion, and more current passing through the coil. Unclean power is perfectly fine, so long as you never exceed thermal limitations- it's not the cleanliness of the signal that matters, but the power being thrown into the subwoofer at the time. This again takes quite a bit of abuse to get there, especially if you are listening to music at the time. Music is dynamic, not constant like sine sweeps, so the idea of a dynamic source being clipped so bad and for so long to maintain enough energy to heat a coil into destruction is really almost silly.

It should be stressed that sine waves (especially the very very low ones) are incredibly hard on subwoofers. And coupled with a ported box (unloading) or even the ideal sealed box, if you go after a low enough sine sweep, you have the potential to mechanically destroy the sub by asking it to excurde beyond it's limitations.

 

[SuckMikeHawk23 10+ year member]

I'm not going to spend the extra time endearing you with a response, but instead suggesting you look at the post above mine in which I was addressed like such:

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Um, I'd hate to be the one to break it to you,

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spend some time calling him a dick while you are at it, I on the other hand am not here to argue with you whether or not you think I'm nice. I start to wonder if this is another attack of who has the higher post count...

well, his quote was not nearly as rude as yours, and there never was an attack of who has a higher post count or whatever. i just find it quite rude when people come on for a week and act like an a$$hole... i dont personally know you, so i'm not gonna judge you, maybe u had a bad day or whatever, but from what i've been reading, u still act like an a-hole... i personally dont care what you think about me either... but anyways, i'm with the rest of the guys and believe that clipping and distortion is what kills speakers, and an overload of power usually brings these distorted signals, but overpowering it alone wont kill the woofer, cuz zane is known for his 1500 watts to 3 w0's...

 

[jlaine 10+ year member]

Originally posted by stones ZANE get your ass in here and set sh*t straight. I can see things from jlains point and everyone elses point of veiw. Technically an amp will put put out much more than its rated power when driven into clipping, when an amplifier is clipping it will start to put out DC voltage as well as AC voltage, DC voltage is translated direcly into heat when run though the voice coil of a speaker due to the fact that a speaker cannot reproduce a square waveform--Hence, burnt coils and blown speakers, but......

Well I don't need Zane to clarify things for me, as they were pretty clear to begin with, I don't think you need his intervention either as you have gotten a pretty good grasp of it right now...

Just a few things... This is not DC voltage. A square wave is not DC voltage. There is a very simplistic test to prove this, try and pass a clipped signal or a square wave through a capacitor. Does it go through? You betcha...

AC it is...

If it was pure DC, it won't pass through it- capacitors actually insulate DC. (now you are going to wonder about the caps we use in cars... if you are unsure about those, I'll be glad to clarify- just think PWM though...)

 

[Phatillusion 5,000+ posts]

Distortion does NOT kill speakers.

Where did you get this information from?????

That is the reason I got kinda mad and decided to post the I'd hate to break it to you...

The first line is fine, but you didn't have to insult the person with 5 question marks, all you had to do is simply state facts, not embarass him, we all learn from somebody or something, we are led to believe we are right, until someone prooves us wrong. It isn't anybody's fault to state their opinion, whether it is right, wrong, or neutral. Basically we are all on here to learn, some know more than others, some know nothing at all, some are in between, and some like Zane & Ramos are near the top of the pyramid, regardless, nobody is right 100% of the time, and people have feelings, when you make them feel like sh!t with a comment like that, it just makes me wanna treat the person who said it the same way. To put it simply, this forum is tight, your knowledge is very welcome, whether it is right or wrong, we all like a good discussion such as this thread, but you will get more bees with honey, than you will with sh!t.

 

[StallionAudio 10+ year member]

To suggest an answer to the original question asked by 31337hxr, try starting over from the beginning... set the gains on your h/u bass/treble to both 0. Turn the gain all the way down on your amps(including db boosts). Turn the deck up to around 38 - 42... pioneeirs go up to 63. Now adjust your highs first to where you want them. Then turn the gain on your amp up. Put as much clean power into em w/out the db boost. Turn up the subwoofer output to increase the voltage to the amp some or turn up the bass setting if you can w/out distorting the fullrange speakers. Then if you still need some more adjust in the db boost. That extra boost at high volumes will make the sub bottom out quicker... just some suggestions for ya... see how they work out. Good luck. Peace guy

 

[audiolife 5,000+ posts]

clipping is a form of distortion anyway and it can blow speakers by producing heat be it theoretical or actual if it doesnt say it on the box noone understands, how many owners manuals explain this? where i believe the confusion lies is in the understanding of what was never said. (until now)...nor explained "" it is true but i wouldnt go recomending people to be volume masters ehehe reasons behind this is variables in boxes ,speaker.......ect ect.....reasons this doesnt get out is because people who sell it should be trained in it by the manufacturer (most dont get it from what i see nor understand it if they do) its the manufactures way of controlling who sells what where and why, but the net is so new many people sell this stuff have no clue....except the few ... just be glad you have people that will go to the extremes to explain (i won't 'cause im lazy and if you really wanna know you should learn the whole concept not just parts) but i'll tell you were to look lol another reason why there be so much chaos is there is no real standardization in specs from volfenhag to jl there be a difference in how they come up with their numbers all for marketing........what jl said about heat is true (at first i thought he was saying the opp of what he was until i re read it but its early lol) i know a few amps that add the heat index of the amps heat sink to the output power of the amp to achieve 1000 watts of power lololol aka the 50 dollar 1000 watt amp.

 

[ramos 5,000+ posts]

Originally posted by jlaine  

You see, therein lies the major issue.

There are 20 other variables that need to be taken into account.

Box size, air temperature, ported?, sealed?, music?, sweeps?, duration?

 

The severe issue brought to the front is if you are clipping straight sine waves, you are in for some hellacious trouble. The possibility of destroying a singular subwoofer based upon clipping music and the added heat generated(which believe it or not, 99% of us listen to our music clipped due to musical peaks and the inability of amplifiers and headroom), is very slim, to almost absurd. You do understand that the average subwoofer is about .5% efficient, so for every 100 watts of input power, you get about 1/2 of a watt of output, and 99.5 watts of heat in that coil.

It all boils down to thermal handling of the woofer, if you stay within it's generated thermal limitations, you are good to go, even if you use square waves!

It's just the ability to remove that heat from the coil that is the major concern that is brought up, clipping in the extreme sense, is nothing more than a nasty sound.

 

Ramos- one and only... I'm known by this name wherever I wander... //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

Did Overpecker ever send the sub for the listening test. Hah hah

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/banghead.gif.8606515f668c74f6de0281deb475b6fd.gif

 

[jlaine 10+ year member]

Originally posted by ramos  

 

Did Overpecker ever send the sub for the listening test. Hah hah

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/banghead.gif.8606515f668c74f6de0281deb475b6fd.gif

LOL... I think we both know the answer to that little incident... //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif