Can subs get unlouder if u turn too high?

[jlaine 10+ year member]

Originally posted by RangerMan Seeing as your a certified Adire dealer, I believe that you know what you are talking about, but I still have to question it until zane comes back.

Take that with a grain of salt-- go read up on the link I posted for you, or if you have a few bucks to spend, hit autosound2000 and grab their technical brochure on this subject... it is a VERY good read, I'd copy some of it here for you, but I can't because of copyright protection on it. The idea behind clipping has been a smokescreen for not only the car audio world, but the home audio one for quite some time, it still hangs on quite toughly because some haven't seen the updates to modern technology and testing...

 

[RangerMan Premium Member]

There is no doubt in my mind that clipping kills. I have read that and heard that by many car audio experts far more experienced that I. I even remember an arguement about clipping once on this very forum.

 

[MikeofTulsa Moderator]

check out this link from zane's tech site it should take care of this issue.....

http://sl.wus0.com/quclk.go?rd=http://www.eatel.net/~amptech/elecdisc/2ltlpwr.htm&res=13&crid=4cbfbaae6e2ef51d&pos=1&mr=10&qu=clipping

good luck

 

[MikeofTulsa Moderator]

oops accidentally reposted...heh

 

[bigbassman Premium Member]

Originally posted by Goddyd4me check out this link from zane's tech site it should take care of this issue.....

 

http://sl.wus0.com/quclk.go?rd=http://www.eatel.net/~amptech/elecdisc/2ltlpwr.htm&res=13&crid=4cbfbaae6e2ef51d&pos=1&mr=10&qu=clipping

 

 

good luck

that is NOT zane's info, that is a link from his page, to the EXACT same page that Jlaine linked on the first page.... //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif It does not belong to Zane, and will never belong to him... I hate to be a prick, but I have to give respect to the owner of the page, who worked his but off on it...

Thanks.

Loyd L.

 

[Phatillusion 5,000+ posts]

No matter how much you underpower/overpower your speakers, you will run into clipping/distortion somewhere along the way.

I am still sticking to my belief, until Zane or Ramos can come on here and explain otherwise. I have blown speakers with too little power, and have always believed that abusing the volume and gain controlsor was the reason.

 

[MikeofTulsa Moderator]

Originally posted by bigbassman  

that is NOT zane's info, that is a link from his page, to the EXACT same page that Jlaine linked on the first page.... //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif It does not belong to Zane, and will never belong to him... I hate to be a prick, but I have to give respect to the owner of the page, who worked his but off on it...

 

Thanks.

 

Loyd L.

sorry i just assumed it was zanes site....so what if its a link....still provides the information needed....

 

[RangerMan Premium Member]

Originally posted by Phatillusion

 

I am still sticking to my belief, until Zane or Ramos can come on here and explain otherwise. I have blown speakers with too little power, and have always believed that abusing the volume and gain controlsor was the reason.

I have to call you out on this one Phatillusion. You can't blow speakers from too little power. Ask zane, he will tell you the same. Sorry bud.//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/frown.gif.a3531fa0534503350665a1e957861287.gif

 

[Phatillusion 5,000+ posts]

ok so I stated it wrong, what I meant was I had too little power going to them, and I meant that abusing the volume/gain controls was the reason it blew, which was the result of clipping/distortion.

 

[Phatillusion 5,000+ posts]

check out this link from zane's tech site it should take care of this issue.....

If you want to get technical, he just said it's a link from zanes site, he never gave credit to zane.

 

[jlaine 10+ year member]

Originally posted by Phatillusion

 

I am still sticking to my belief, until Zane or Ramos can come on here and explain otherwise. I have blown speakers with too little power, and have always believed that abusing the volume and gain controlsor was the reason.

I am completely bewildered as to why you gentlemen cannot open your eyes and read the document provided. The man that produced that page, his name is Perry Babin, and he indeed works his rear off making that site what it is today, he also is the designer for our online magazine on my site. What is encased there will show you exactly what happens when you clip a waveform, and why it isn't clipping that kills anything, but power (again.)

The idea of holding your grounds until someone else tells you otherwise seems just bewildering to me, Phatillusion, please- go read through the information provided there, and if that isn't enough, I can get you a link to autosound 2000's technical briefing that covers this issue.

 

[Phatillusion 5,000+ posts]

What is encased there will show you exactly what happens when you clip a waveform, and why it isn't clipping that kills anything, but power (again.)

So let me use an example: Take a 300 wRMS sub, you power it with 200 wRMS. You turn the volume control all the way up, the sub sounds horrible, after listening to it for a while (month or so) the sub no longer works. Explain what happened. I am led to believe that clipping/distortion is the reason the sub no longer works, so with your theory explain why you believe that the sub is no longer working. Clipping in the aspect of itself, may not be the reason it blew, but clippin has to have something to do with it. The reason I believe this is: if you don't abuse your sub underpowering it, it should work fine. I have a friend who has an old RF 10" and believe me when I say old, its close to 10 years old or so. He has never had a problem with it, and he is underpowering it by quite a bit. He also knows his subs limit, and doesn't abuse the volume control. If you can give me a straight forward answer that proves it, such as graphs, or your own terms, then I can work with that. I'm not going to say I'm right every time, because nobody is, that is why most of us are here, to learn.

 

[ramos 5,000+ posts]

Okay let me throw my two cents in. If jlaine is the same jlaine from carsound he does know what he's talking about.

Okay first underpowering speakers will not cause damage.

Considerably overpowering can cause damage.

Now for the part I think everybocy is getting confused. Theoreticaly when an amp is driven to clipping (distortion) it produces about twice what it would clean. But at the same time this is happening the cone is not moving nearly as much. Which means not as much air is flowing through the voice coil. Which causes the voice coil to overheat. I thnk this is why everybody says distortion kills subs. I myself have said this before. The statement probably isn't the most accurate statement in the world. But driving your amps too clipping makes everything sound like a$$. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[jlaine 10+ year member]

Originally posted by Phatillusion

 

So let me use an example: Take a 300 wRMS sub, you power it with 200 wRMS. You turn the volume control all the way up, the sub sounds horrible, after listening to it for a while (month or so) the sub no longer works. Explain what happened. I am led to believe that clipping/distortion is the reason the sub no longer works, so with your theory explain why you believe that the sub is no longer working. Clipping in the aspect of itself, may not be the reason it blew, but clippin has to have something to do with it. The reason I believe this is: if you don't abuse your sub underpowering it, it should work fine. I have a friend who has an old RF 10" and believe me when I say old, its close to 10 years old or so. He has never had a problem with it, and he is underpowering it by quite a bit. He also knows his subs limit, and doesn't abuse the volume control. If you can give me a straight forward answer that proves it, such as graphs, or your own terms, then I can work with that. I'm not going to say I'm right every time, because nobody is, that is why most of us are here, to learn.

You see, therein lies the major issue.

There are 20 other variables that need to be taken into account.

Box size, air temperature, ported?, sealed?, music?, sweeps?, duration?

The severe issue brought to the front is if you are clipping straight sine waves, you are in for some hellacious trouble. The possibility of destroying a singular subwoofer based upon clipping music and the added heat generated(which believe it or not, 99% of us listen to our music clipped due to musical peaks and the inability of amplifiers and headroom), is very slim, to almost absurd. You do understand that the average subwoofer is about .5% efficient, so for every 100 watts of input power, you get about 1/2 of a watt of output, and 99.5 watts of heat in that coil.

It all boils down to thermal handling of the woofer, if you stay within it's generated thermal limitations, you are good to go, even if you use square waves!

It's just the ability to remove that heat from the coil that is the major concern that is brought up, clipping in the extreme sense, is nothing more than a nasty sound.

Ramos- one and only... I'm known by this name wherever I wander... //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

 

[Phatillusion 5,000+ posts]

So are you saying that a clipped/distorted signal from the amp, can carry much more power in terms of wattage than the amp is rated at? If so, yeah, I'll agree that too "unclean" power will kill the sub. So basically it is isn't the fact that your amp is clipping but the fact that it is "overheating" your sub. But, theoretically it happens becuase your amp is in fact clipping, but scientifically your sub is just getting too much unclean power.

This brings up another question:

You have an amp rated at 250 Wrms & 500 Wmax, (durable amp, does what it says) if you sent the amp into clipping, how many watts of unclean power, do you think that amp is capable of delivering?