[BMW E34] Newbie needs advice on SQ setup

[Heinemans]

Dear fellow (car)audio enthusiasts,

I'm new to this forum, so excuse me if this thread is in the wrong section.

Also English is not my native language; excuse me if I may make some spelling mistakes.

That said, I have a problem. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/tongue.gif.6130eb82179565f6db8d26d6001dcd24.gif

In short: I want to upgrade the complete (OEM) audio system in my car, and to be honest, I need your advice to accomplish this. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/cool.gif.3bcaf8f141236c00f8044d07150e34f7.gif

Some background information

I've always wanted to do a build like this. On the cars I've owned in the past I've allways replaced the stock OEM audio system by some simple, low level, upgraded components (headunit, speakers, once I've used an amp). This still sounded not that good (just say bad //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/tongue.gif.6130eb82179565f6db8d26d6001dcd24.gif) obviously, these cars were however never worth the cost/build time of a good setup.

For the past 2 years I own a BMW E34 525TD, which I use as a daily driver (100k km/year (60k miles/year)). This car (the E34 in general) is just a passion of mine, and in order to keep that passion alive I need to upgrade stuff on the car once in a while. This time I want to upgrade the audio system, because this is just below standard (in contrast to the rest of the car).

Wishlist

A SQ setup (SoundQuality), not SPL...

• Clean, clear and crisp sound
  
• OEM head unit
  
• OEM look
  

Because it's an older car (1993) which has a sertain feeling/vibe/look to it which I like, I don't want the audio to be visible from the outside. The audio upgrade is the only thing what will be done on this car that is not OEM, which could potentially ruin the feeling/vibe/look of the car. This is something I want prevent, and therefor must be taken into account when selecting a setup.

The base

BMW E34 525TD sedan, 1993

The OEM installation is as follows:

• 2 5.25" woofers [FOOTWELL DRIVER/PASSENGER]
• 2 2.5" midbass [TOP OF DASHBOARD]
• 2 1" tweeters [A PILLAR]

• 2 5.25" woofers [TOP REAR SHELF]
• 2 1" tweeters [TOP REAR SHELF]

• BMW business RDS
• BMW 6CD changer P
• NO OEM AMPLIFIER

In general the E34 is pretty well sound insulated. On all panels/doors there are sound-dampening mats, all speaker holes/cavities are insulated with fabric/wool like stuff and there are no rattling interior parts.

Below is a drawing on the speaker/audio layout of the E34.

All speakers are circled green. The OEM amplifier (Nr.32) is part of the HIGH audio system, which is not installed in my car.
The orientation of the speakers is also visible on this image.

Below are some pictures of the actual car.

Sorry for the quality, these were made with my phone. On request I will provide you guys on detailed pictures of sertain components

My ideas

First of all, these are just my ideas on what components to use. I don't have any knowledge on good brands, nor components. Here is were you guys come in. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

The components

• OEM Headunit
• DSP
• AMP('s)
• 3 stage (front)
• 2 stage (rear)
• SUB

So, the above is what I think. Original headunit in combination with a DSP to provide for a clean input for the AMP('s) which provide a output for the front and rear component sets. Also small SUB for the required bass.
The DSP and AMP('s) will be located in the trunk (behind the side panels), speakers will be located in the original mounting positions. Finally the sub will be located in the rear armrest cavity (ski-hole).
The 5.25" mounting positions will be able to accommodate a 6.5" speaker, provided that the mounting depth will not be to great.

Budget

In short: Whatever it takes to accomplish the "for me best setup".

I know this is a little vague/relative, but let me try to explain.

I don't think that I will be able to hear the difference (I'm not an audiophile, only an enthusiast //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif ) between a component set of 400,- vs a set of 2000,-, so in that case I will go with the 400,- set.

I just wan't the best there is, until I can't hear the difference anymore.

The final question(s)

• What do you think on my point of view on the outline of the setup?
  
• What should I further consider changing in order to get the SQ I'm after? (Speaker orientation, etc.)
  
• What components am I looking for? (Brand, type, size, etc.)
  

So that's about it I think.

May you guys require any extra information then please don't hesitate to ask, I will do my best to provide you with the neccesary.

Thanks for reading and thanks in advance for the advice. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

With kind regards,

Hein

Click to read more...

 

[Heinemans]

None of you have any ideas on my thoughts? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/frown.gif.a3531fa0534503350665a1e957861287.gif

If my post was incomplete on anything then please let me know. I'm totally new to this so I may have forgotten some important information...

A well, I did have some time to read around the forum in the meantime. I've also been to a car audio store which did have some nice demo setups.

I will post my finds below.

The components

First of all, I have a better overview of the needed components, what is available and what I think (was told) I need.

The front and back stage

I have listened to some different brands, and I must say, even I hear the difference between a 300 euro component system versus a 2000 euro component system. Okay, this might be due to the salesman who, ofcourse, was trying to sell me the 2000 euro one
//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/tongue.gif.6130eb82179565f6db8d26d6001dcd24.gif.
The speakers, or say brand, I liked most was Focal, in particular the Utopia range. These were however a bit over-budget. I mean, a complete set was like 5000 euro's, a bit to much for my first "real" car audio installation:.
 
I was adviced to go for the following:

• Focal Expert PS 165 F3
• Focal Expert PS 165 FX
• Focal FPS 4160

As a second option the salesman offered me the Power K2 range from Focal. The better soundquality (to my ears) did however not justify the increase in price.
The bass

Here I also listened to some demo models. I must say, I liked the sound of the smaller subs,
 
The following was adviced:

• Focal 27KX
• Focal FPS 1500

Maybe the above is a bit to much "brand oriented", which may be because the car audio store was a Focal dealer, but I must say I did like the sound of the suggested sets.

The price of the Focal products may be a little steep, because I also listened to products from Rainbow Audio, which I also liked and were a lot cheaper.

The point is, I'm completely dependent on others, and what they make me listen to. Ofcourse I can hear the difference between different sets, and which I like and which I don't.

I don't think the sales people in the stores are completely objective, they always will try to sell me products with a greater margin.

This is were your advice comes in, and is well appreciated.

Speaker orientation

Second point is the orientation of the stock speakre locations.

I've read that footwell speakers are well located for the human ear. Has to do with the vertical vs horizontal hearing spectrum of the human ear.

The tweeters will be located in the A-pillars, and will be directed towards to listener.

The mids will be located on top of the dash and will reflect their sound from the front windshield towards the listeners.

In the rear the mids and tweeters will be aimed mostly up, against the rear windshield, pointed a little bit towards the listeners.

The sub will be placed face/cone towards the cabin trough the ski-hole in a sealed enclousure.

I've also made some new pictures which are a little more clear.

The (new/added) question(s)

• What do you think of the chosen components? (3 way front stage/2 way rear stage/1 small sub (sealed))
  
• What do you think of the suggested components by the salesman. (the Focal products)
  
• What do you think of the layout of the speaker system? (orientation, etc.)
  

Again I will thank you guys for reading, and I really hope I will get some response to this post from the experts, were I'm sure of there are enough from on here. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

 

[Heinemans]

Still no thoughts on my post?

Hard to believe none of you 155 viewers/readers hasn't any thoughts on this... //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

Again, if Im asking the wrong questions, then please, explain to me what I'm doing wrong and I will correct it. I'm trying my best to make these posts the best I can.

I'm still doing a lot of reading on car audio, and here is what I've found:

I read that power supply could be, or is, a big thing when installing an upgraded audio setup; the big three for example.

I've found the following in my car, which I think should be enough for the setup I'm going for.

The E34 is equiped with a 140 ampere dynamo, which is connected to a battery under the rear seats (close to the amps) with a 00 gauge wire, which is grounded to the chassis with a 00 gauch wire. The loop closes with the connection from the chassis to the engine block with a 00 gauge wire.
For isolation the following is applied by factory.

All doors contain a bitumen isolation sheed on the inside (about 40x40cm). Roofpanels, botom (inside) and firewall/backwall are also covered with sheets of bitumen isolation. Speaker cavities, roofpanels and floor (about 2 inches of carpet/foam) are coverd with a thick foam which is supplemented by fabirc/wool like stuff.
As far as noise isolation/vibration dampening and power supply goes I think the E34 is equiped enough.

Of course all panels which may rattle a little when having such an audio setup will be covered/joined with foam/bitumen. This will be done after installing all components to see if it's even necessary.

When looking at the bottom kicker-panels I think the grilles/holes in them are a little smal. Is it better to make those bigger, especially with 6.5" speakers behind them?

They were originally made for 5.25" and allready look a little small.

 

[TrillGates2k6]

Ok man I'll bite. Sounds like you just want to upgrade all of your component speakers inside your car. you want them all to be the same size as the factory ones. Chances are you can get away with this without adding an amplifier and sometimes you cannot. Just depends on the type of speakers you purchase. If you're looking on advice on which ones to purchase, rule of thumb is usually the higher priced speakers typically are gonna sound better. Me personally when it comes to quality sound, I'm partial to INFINITY, but that's just me. But there are lots of brands that sound good. I think you would need to go and listen to a few different types of speaker brands and see what works for you. But from the looks of it, it seems like you're just swapping out all of the OEM Factory speakers for Aftermarket ones. Not really a lot to do here.

 

[youghmama]

Here's your sub. Its an e46, but what the heck, I am sure you can do the same to an e34 with minor modifications: Focal Beryllium BMW

 

[globalminds_ent 10+ year member]

Nice car

 

[lnsomnia]

This looks like a nice car to run an SQ build on. Just get tons and tons of deadner and a nice three way component set for the front, a half-decent component set for the back, and then I would power it all to an amp. But that's just me lol. I don't know much about sound quality... At all.

Look into Focal, Hybrid Audio Technologies or Hertz. All pretty good companies in my opinion.

 

[sharky]

From what ive learned the head unit is one of if not the most important component for sound improvement..The frequencies the factory unit puts out is not ideal for sound quality in general..

The next step is definitely speakers to replace the factory ones,,Even if just a set of low to mid priced 2 ways will work as your stereo doesn't put out the power to make higher priced better quality speakers sound good anyways.

So some low RMS speakers and a lot of sound deadening preparation seems to be your only shot at better sound quality if you don't want to replace the head unit or add an amplifier...Don't think a pair of 150 dollar 2 way or components are going to sound as good as what you paid for them because they wont without the power to bring them alive...If your head unit puts out 15w rms per channel then speakers that can take 50rms are gonna sound like crap when you turn it up...You also want to look for a speaker set with a higher db rating or SPL...a set with 92db will play much louder with less power than a set that's 89db

A lot have said don't use sound deadener from the hardware store but I disagree with that whole heartedly...It does the same thing the expensive stuff does and is 1/3rd the cost...Don't get caught in the "nothing else works but this from their favorite stereo shop" trap..Its BS and your wallet doesn't have to get robbed to have a huge improvement in sound...Is it as good for one layer of lower cost deadener?..maybe not; by a small margin..but the good stuff is definitely not worth more than half the cost of the cheaper stuff..The difference is very minimal and you really cant tell the difference unless your some super pro sound engineer or something like that...just try it..you wont be disappointed.

It really boils down to your budget..if you have expendable money and don't care, then spend all you want on all the best you can find..it definitely wont make your car sound better than one who spent less in some cases..Its all how its installed and how things are prepped that makes a system sound good.

let us know what you decide to do..seems to be a lot of budget builds or threads started lately and its interesting to see how people decide or whats recommended.

Ill be doing a budget build myself but going for the best SQ I can get for my money and its no where near the best in speakers/amps or head units I can find.

Look on youtube to find some ideas on what you can use to sound deaden your car...Peel and seal and U-seal seem to be very popular and it does work.

 

[trumpet 5,000+ posts]

What you've suggested is quite reasonable. You will need an audio shop that will deliver what you want without causing any damage to the interior with disassembly and reassembly, as well as understanding how to make the car sound like you want without pushing you to spend more and more money on unnecessary upgrades.

Before I comment on the speaker layout, I want to mention the sound damping. 20+ year old bitumen damping mat is probably not in good condition. Since you're satisified with the noise and vibration of the car now, or so you said, you can possibly leave that alone. Know that there are many good automotive acoustic treatments that can bring the car to a higher level of comfort, which also makes your music sound better.

I like the front speaker layout. I think you will be fine with 5.25" woofers in the kick panels. Bigger can be better, but not always. The rear speakers could be replaced with a coaxial speaker to save money. Spend more money on the front speakers and the installation costs to do it right.

Did you talk about DSP options when you auditioned speakers?

 

[Heinemans]

First of all:

Thank you all for the reply's, this is allready helping a lot! //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

I'm not ging to react to every post individually because a lot of you are suggesting/talking about the same.

The setup I'm willing to go for

The plan is to achieve the best sound possible (for me), so I'm willing/need to replace all original components of the sound system. The one thing I wan't to keep is the original headunit.

Above was also what I told to the salesman I spoke earlier this week and he made a suggestion regarding that information. After some reading I changed some things (mostly budget wise/to highend for me(?)), and this is what I came up with:

FRONT

• Focal PS165 F3
  
• Focal FPS2160
  

REAR

• Focal PS165FX
  
• Focal P21V2
  
• Focal FPS4160
  

DSP

• Alpine PXA-H800
  

Up till now I have 2 questions:

• Does the FPS range amp's sound a lot better than the FPP range? (The FPP range is adviced by Focal for the PS(flax) range of speakers, and is a lot cheaper. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/tongue.gif.6130eb82179565f6db8d26d6001dcd24.gif)
  
• Does the PXA-H800 correct enough for the old/OEM headunit?
  

I must say that the factory headunit, overall, does not sound bad at all. I've had a more recent Pioneer headunit (about 200,-) that did not sound noticably better than the unit I have now. Ok you did have more settings to correct for stuf, but when playing from CD the unit does not sound bad at all...

Thats why I did have the question about the Alpine DSP, it seems to have a lot of cool features. Ofcourse I know that the DSP cannot create details in the music when they are not deliverd by the headunit. --> (sh*t in = sh*t out, I can imagine)

Sound deadening will be done if necessary, I can only judge this after the install is done.

About the install

I will be doing this myself. Now I know I have no experience with car audio, but I am a very handy man. I'm doing everything, but I mean everything on the car myself. Heck, I'm even restoring an M5 (same model) from the ground up, so I think that installing a "simple" audio upgrade would be no problem. (no offence ofcourse //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif, the finetuning will be done with the help of an expert. (first need to find one. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/tongue.gif.6130eb82179565f6db8d26d6001dcd24.gif)

About keeping track of the progress

Ofcourse I will post all progress here. For the information I'm getting from this site you guys deserve some pictures/stories about a, I hope, clean install. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

 

[Heinemans]

About the installI will be doing this myself. Now I know I have no experience with car audio, but I am a very handy man. I'm doing everything, but I mean everything on the car myself. Heck, I'm even restoring an M5 (same model) from the ground up, so I think that installing a "simple" audio upgrade would be no problem. (no offence ofcourse , the finetuning will be done with the help of an expert. (first need to find one. )

I've re-read this part of my post and it sounds a bit offending for the pro's on here. It was absolutely not ment like that. There is a good reason why I'm on this forum, and that's because I really don't know what I'm dealing with here.

The thing I was trying to say was that the installation process would be something I can do on my own. I don't think my handy skills would be any less than the installers at the average car audio shop...

Offcourse they have experience, which I don't, but that's why I'm on here. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

So, during the build I will keep track of my progress and ask you guys what best to do when installing everything, because you're the guys who know best. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

 

[calebkhill 10+ year member]

Start here -----> Erin's Civic Build Log

 

[Heinemans]

Start here -----> Erin's Civic Build Log

Thanks for the tip, some really good (and quite difficult) stuff on there.

Current plans on the setup

• Focal PS165F3
  
• Focal PS130F
  
• Focal 27 KX
  
• Focal FPS 4160
  
• Focal FPS 1500
  
• Audioson Bit Ten
  

Elaboration:

6,5" drivers for real fill are a bit to large, that's why I've chosen for the 5,25" composet in the rear.

The Alpine HX800 might have a little to much options/settings for me and the price difference in comparison with the Bit Ten - which I think has enough options - is to great.

Unless you guys can convince me otherwise this will be the initial setup I will go with. Expansion of the set can allways be done at a later time.