aww shit- Elemental designs in trouble again..

[azbass 5,000+ posts]

lol

i dont think they should be messing with JL..

 

[02parkave 5,000+ posts]

It is free enterprise, yes, BUT when the companies have patents on parts/designs, If they have the time (and money) to persue it, the companie "borrowing" the design can get is some shit... as for how this will turn out, i dont know...

 

[phantom240 5,000+ posts]

Yes, I think that patented technologies, like kicker's double stitch surround, shouldn't be copied, as they are very expensive to develop and such. Now, I don't know what all is copied from JL, but unless they use a specific part that JL is the sole user of, its just a basket design, just a similar motor, etc. They look similar. Don't most companies outsource things like baskets and what not? Isnt that why there are like 1 million woofers with the classic 12spoke basket? Do they crap on each other all the time for having 12 spoke baskets? I think someone needs to take a hard hit at JL personally. With the exception of the new style W6 and the W7, JL hasn't really been living up to their past reputation. And also, their stuff is so grossly overpriced, that a little competition will do the entire audio community some good.

 

[mandos 10+ year member]

The baskets may look similar, but they have different clearances. Not to mention if you actually had 2 side by side, you'd notice they really aren't the same at all.

NOTHING is copied from a W7...everything on the 13Av.2 is new tooling.

As noted in the blog:

Their concern is largely based on the fact that the basket would allow for direct airflow to the gap plate.
The design doesn`t though. There is a heatsink on the gap plate designed to dissipate heat away from the gap plate. This is designed to further aid in power handling of the underhung coil. Please read. There is a heatsink between the basket and the gap plate which plays a role in heat dissipation.

So the thing that JL was concerned about is something that isn't even there on the speaker.

 

[02parkave 5,000+ posts]

Are you kidding? the 12 spoke frame (and the 4 spoke) is a "free" frame (meaning their are no active patents on it...) Why do you think tc sounds and the companies it builds for are the only ones that have the TI baskets, and the LA baskets? because their are active patents on them.. what for? well, those designs have more rearward clearance, and the ability to use 10" spiders. JL has that basket patented. (i dont know what for.. maybe the cooling capabilities of it) your personal feelings toward JL mean absolutly nothing to this discussion.

 

[02parkave 5,000+ posts]

The baskets may look similar, but they have different clearances. Not to mention if you actually had 2 side by side, you'd notice they really aren't the same at all.
NOTHING is copied from a W7...everything on the 13Av.2 is new tooling.

As noted in the blog:

So the thing that JL was concerned about is something that isn't even there on the speaker.

we understand that.. i dont care what happens from this little problem.. but it does need to be addressed (which to your credit, it is) and i dont understand what phantom doesnt get?

Phantom- maybe this will clear it up- JL audio has that frame PATENTED. now IF the ed frame is not the same (i dont know, or care) then their is no problem. however if it IS the same then ED will have a BIG problem...JL's lawyers will see to it that it is changed. And if you are honestly advocating one companie stealing from another, then you are as much scum as the theif's themselves...

 

[phantom240 5,000+ posts]

I know that the 12 spoke frames arent patented, but it was the first thing that came to my mind. I realize JL has patented their basket, but as long as Ben's basket isnt identical, its not infringing JL's copyright.

 

[02parkave 5,000+ posts]

i know. most of the world knows how patents work (identicle doesnt matter afaik, very close could be a problem as well)... could you explain why you feel it is alright for one company to steal from another in your mind?

 

[phantom240 5,000+ posts]

IMHO he is not "stealing" their design, as it doesnt use the same basket design (though a similar appearance), it uses dual spiders instead of a single spider, and AFAIK the only way it is similar is that it is a high excursion woofer and has a similar appearance.

If you build an amplifier and sell it for $X, and I buy your amplifier, take it apart, see how it works, and build a similar looking amplifier, but with more cost effective circuitry that puts out only 80% as much as yours does and sell it for half as much, is that stealing? Or is it competition?

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

Pardon me while I interject a little reality into this conversation. Lets look at Ben/ED's 2 major points:

"1. Patent Infringement. The biggest concern here seems to stem from the fact that the initial drawings of the 13Av.2 I did in the past don`t perfectly mimic the Av.2 production. To someone looking at my drawings for the first time I can understand how this might not be clear. So be it. I can handle that. Their concern is largely based on the fact that the basket would allow for direct airflow to the gap plate.

 

The design doesn`t though. There is a heatsink on the gap plate designed to dissipate heat away from the gap plate. This is designed to further aid in power handling of the underhung coil. Please read. There is a heatsink between the basket and the gap plate which plays a role in heat dissipation."

Unless Im reading this wrong, and it does seem to be worded ambiguously, the initial drawing/design DID incorporate direct cooling, not this heatsink. Is this an arguement of 'well some drawings showed a patent infringement, but I changed the final design so it doesnt'? Either way, clearly the design is close enough to be 'confused' as JL patented technology.

Is that legal? Apparently. Is it ethical? Eh.

Personally, I prefer companies that inspire new design, not closely mimmick another design but not so much so as to be sued. But hey, maybe that's just me.

Point 2:

"2. Likeness.

 

Likeness I can`t control. What can I say. Some people see a likeness. That`s ok. But you all should know when your buying a 13Av.2 your not buying a JL product, a JL anything, a JL something, or a JL wannabe. Was a Bentley in front of Chrysler when they drew up the 300c? Was a Mercedes S around when Lexus drew the LS? I don`t know. It`s a basket. It has the same function. It`s not the same basket. That should be clear by a few things.

 

1. Overall height.

2. Landings

3. Clearances

4. Diameter"

Oh gee, some people see a likeness that Ben can't even grasp. Right. Ben, that's just absurd. Even you have to admit the basket looks *strikingly* similar to JL's. Legally different or not, they look very alike, and you acting like you dont even see a similarity just compounds the complaint that you are acting under handed in this matter. You say you want to be up front, then you BS us like that. C'mon.

The baskets may look similar, but they have different clearances. Not to mention if you actually had 2 side by side, you'd notice they really aren't the same at all.
NOTHING is copied from a W7...everything on the 13Av.2 is new tooling.

As noted in the blog:

So the thing that JL was concerned about is something that isn't even there on the speaker.

Wait, now the baskets DO look similar?
I find it amazing with the fairly good amount of custom tooled frames out there these days, even long excursion frames, why nobody else's frame had to so closely match the looks of the JL's frame.

Needing to hold them side by side to see the differences, only proves the point they are very similar. Nobody is arguing they are exactly the same. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/eyebrow.gif.fe2c18d8720fe8c7eaed347b21ea05a5.gif

Nobody is suggesting you stole JL's tooling/frame molds/etc. That would be a clear violation of the law, you would obviously never do that. I guess that makes everything ethical, right?

JL was concerned about something that wasn't even on the speaker, but was on the initial drawings? Walking a fine line aren't you?

One thing that Id like to note is there is one thing to be legal, and another to be ethical. I highly doubt eD has done anything to put them in legal trouble. But ethically, there is no question (in my mind) eD copied what they could from the W7, at very least in terms of aesthetics.

Lastly, Ed, and you Ben, has given us plenty of reason to distrust you in the past. I see no reason to assume otherwise until proven otherwise. Dont thank me or anyone else here for the rightful questioning of your company's policies, you can thank your 'innocent' mistakes on the sound deadener fiasco, the pre-order ordeals and all your other historical problems you've created and tried to sweep under the rug.

Have a nice day.

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

Anyone here every use microsoft windows? That too was "borrowed" from another company.
*shrug* business is cut throat. Just the nature of the beast.

Even free-market systems have to have some legal checks and balances, or the entire thing would collapse. If a company spent millions developing a new product, only to have a competitor buy one, reverse engineer it and have an identical one on the market for a fraction of the 'developement' cost, no company would ever invest in R&D ever again. This is ultimately why the patent system is in place.

Business can be and is cut throat. But that doesn't mean I have to chose to align myself with a company that 'plays dirty'. Plenty of up and coming car audio companies these days, ones with new subwoofer designs that dont look like anyone else's but their own.

 

[phantom240 5,000+ posts]

The cold hard truth about business is that what is legal isnt usually ethical. Look at it this way, they need to make money, not friends.

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

The cold hard truth about business is that what is legal isnt usually ethical. Look at it this way, they need to make money, not friends.

Dude, buy a JL look-alike-wannabe sub if you want. Call it being shrewd if you want. I'll call it being a 'me too' company with no real aparent innovation of their own. What, nobody at eD has enough imagination to design a new frame that doesn't look like anyone elses? Look for big ideas from this company! //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif

 

[delvryboy 5,000+ posts]

I'm not defending eD here, however, from the original link posted it's fairly obvious the baskets are not close to the the same. Maybe after 6-7 beers in a fog....

 

[w00tah 10+ year member]

Dude, buy a JL look-alike-wannabe sub if you want. Call it being shrewd if you want. I'll call it being a 'me too' company with no real aparent innovation of their own. What, nobody at eD has enough imagination to design a new frame that doesn't look like anyone elses? Look for big ideas from this company! //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif

Amen. I've seen enough bad about eD to never buy from them. The whole fiasco with TB is what pushed me across the edge.

This isn't any better for Ben's rep, and if things with the company keep going on like they have been, Ben is going to get his hand caught in the cookie jar, and then he'll be left to fend for himself. I'm waiting for that day.

Morgan