audioholic inside.

[twistedfreak 10+ year member]

so my next statement:

read much???? when a sub is under powered what result do you get? like you said its like turning down the volume (or not performing to his original expectations)

oh and max potential is a big diff. from max excursion too

maybe if would have read what his expectations were you would have understood what i was saying.

and if you have 3 12's driving to there max potential they will have more output than a single under powerd 18"sub and blend a little better freq. wise than the 18 would.

(me explaining my point)

and really lets face it no matter how good the xxx 18 is, a sub that large does have more trouble reproducing the 60- 110 hz range than say a 12 or 15,

so i dont care what you say, between a 18" sub and a pair of 6.5" comps there will be a freq. gap even if its a small one but never the less still a gap then your SQ goes directly to hell.

and here isnt the point of larger subs lower bass freq reproduction? i was always lead to beleive this.

so with that being said i may be wrong on the freq being 60-110 htz, my point was still its seems it is easier to blend with 12's with your front stage than a 18 that is made to reproduce lower freq.

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

Wow, how sad is this. I thought the barrage of PM's was bad enough. let me just paste my latest PM reply...

Quote:

Originally Posted by twistedfreak

so in order to blend front stage with bass output, 2 15's or 3 12's would be more appropriate when the sub is driven to its max potential.

 

Ive already explained my stance on your original comment. let me explain it once more.

 

From the beginning my 'problem' with your comments stemmed from your comments on power. The 18 needing to be "severley under driven" and "2 15's or 3 12's would be more appropriate when the sub is driven to its max potential".

 

So again, either you are suggesting power input to the speaker affects frequency response (it doesn't), or you were incorrect when adding terms about power while trying to make some point on frequency response of an 18" driver.

 

Frankly, I think you are just trying to make an excuse to not be wrong. Clearly (imo) you were trying to correlate frequency response and input power to the speaker. I see no other logical reason for adding such comments to your point.

 

lastly, even your frequency response theory is off base. The speaker having an 18" diameter and a few grams more moving mass than its smaller counterparts should not affect its ability to reproduce up to 80hz or so. If it cannot, that is much more likely due to the motor design. Fort example, the original xxx's I own will not go past 60hz or so, no matter which size you chose. Just look at upper end home audio and you'll see them using cone sizes for midrange that car audio traditionally think is impossible. Now here you are suggesting an 18" diameter speaker is incapable of reproducing merely up to 80-100hz simply due to cone size, its absurd. And you trying to back up such an absurd stance with having 16 years of 'professional' eperience only makes you look worse.

 

If your front stage cannot reach down to 80-100hz, I suggest a new comp set that will. That's not asking much of the mids. If you are concerned about simple output in terms of blending with the fronts (not freq response), there's a simple thing called a bass knob that will allow the OP to turn down his sub stage to blend it. And like my point was ORIGINALLY, running the sub at less than its potential will actually improve distortion output (lessen it). Therefore I fail to see how either point you tried to make, about input power to the speakers, or freq response, holds any validity.

 

[twistedfreak 10+ year member]

so now you are still not gonna prove me wrong or at least figure out what i was trying to say.

 

[ramos 5,000+ posts]

Couple questions sir . //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

Is the power the same for both setups ?

What's the sd of 2 15's or 3 12's as opposed to a single 18 ?

I'm trying to get a grasp on your concept , tis why I asked the above questions. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

Oh, and this whole thread is retarded. You took it to PM's to 'unclog' the original thread. Deciding to then go back public witha new thread was merely a publicity stunt. Too bad its gonna back fire on you.

 

[newusername 10+ year member]

i think some of the lines "Tim" might have been thinking was in order for the front stage to keep up with the volume on a 18" sub of any brand or style the sub would need to be severley under driven to blend the music properly. correct?

Define underdriven. Is there really such a thing?

if you have a 18" sub that requires what 2k watts. its safe to say that it will play very loudly. correct?

A 6.5" speaker with 100W can play very loudly. Trying to break this down to a comparison of this size speaker vs. that size speaker is pointless because Sd plays a relatively small role in the end result. Once upon a time, sure you could make arguments like this, but as we review motor topologies and push the limits of what is capable, making any statement based on the diameter of a product is pretty silly. The only exception I could really imagine would be making assumptions about top end rolloff when off-axis...but even then, there are some slight tweaks you can do to extend response a little bit.

so with that thought. here is what i was trying to say.

with that much sub volume a pair of un-amped components would have a hard time keeping up with the 18" sub.

I agree it will be **** impossible to keep up with the XXX.

but if you used a couple smaller subs with less output, it would be easier for the comps to keep up.

Why? A couple smaller subs with the same total effective piston area? What's the point?

and then what happens to the output of a 18" sub that requires the same 2k watts of power when you put say 1k watts to it? does it not lower the output of the sub?

Output drops. Distortion probably does, too. Doesn't seem like a big deal to me.

with that thought then the said 18" sub would not meet his expectation would? or why else would he have bought the sub? for what the sub does for outout. right?

Not sure I follow...first it's too much output because it's an 18" sub, now his expectations will not be met. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/confused.gif.e820e0216602db4765798ac39d28caa9.gif

then when i was talking about the maximum potential of the couple of smaller subs, i never said anything about the maximum excursion at all!

I personally didn't read more than 2 or 3 sentences of your posts until now because I saw someone touting their experience in the car audio world but making broad generalizations.

to me maximum potential would mean running at optimum efficiency. not maximum excursion which in my opinion are 2 totally differant things.

To me, maximum potential would mean achieving the maximum of output. If we're looking for maximum efficiency...well, there's a lot of approaches to that and at a certain point, you need more excursion anyways, especially for output at low frequencies.

does my first statment i made make more sense now?

Not in the least, unless I'm missing something.

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

so now you are still not gonna prove me wrong or at least figure out what i was trying to say.

I just called my old 3rd grade science teacher. He did a few experiements with chemicals and beekers while on the phone. He said the liquid came out green, which means you're either wrong, or pregnant. That's proof enough for me.

 

[newusername 10+ year member]

maybe if would have read what his expectations were you would have understood what i was saying.

and if you have 3 12's driving to there max potential they will have more output than a single under powerd 18"sub and blend a little better freq. wise than the 18

Game, set, and match Ladies and Gentlemen.

 

[ramos 5,000+ posts]

See that's the part I'm having trouble understanding . How is more output going to be easier to blend ? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

OHM! I leaked Dr Pepper outta my nose...quoted by audioholic "that your mom is disappointed in how you turned out. Make your mom proud, get into a profession that better suits you, like litter removal." //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif classic man...classic...

Hey if I can make you laugh Polecat, Ive done my part for the day. Maybe this thread wasn't so worthless after all. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

Thanks for breaking it down Neil. Ive lost my patience for trying to explain to him at this point.

 

[twistedfreak 10+ year member]

Define underdriven. Is there really such a thing?

A 6.5" speaker with 100W can play very loudly. Trying to break this down to a comparison of this size speaker vs. that size speaker is pointless because Sd plays a relatively small role in the end result. Once upon a time, sure you could make arguments like this, but as we review motor topologies and push the limits of what is capable, making any statement based on the diameter of a product is pretty silly. The only exception I could really imagine would be making assumptions about top end rolloff when off-axis...but even then, there are some slight tweaks you can do to extend response a little bit.

I agree it will be **** impossible to keep up with the XXX.

i supose there isnt such a thing as underdriven but i was trying general comment of underpowering a sub that would require 2k watss and only feeding it maybe half . and sayin it woul make the output lower than what you would expect it to play.

and my point was not to dis acreedit the xxx

and most of my speaker knowledge was from the 90's were i am still stuck with most of my equipment being old school PG

 

[ramos 5,000+ posts]

Which would usually be a good thing in an SQ system . The good sq setups I have heard sound as if there are no subs at all //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[newusername 10+ year member]

Thanks for breaking it down Neil. Ive lost my patience for trying to explain to him at this point.

Chris, Litter removal made it all worth it, though I could have sworn it initially said garbage man? Audioholic: bringing that Pismo Beach mad hate since 2003.

 

[B_Campbell 10+ year member]

wowz