1000 watts in Class D and Class AB

[cleansoundzz 10+ year member]

This is really good information.

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

It is kind of tough to compare different setups in different vehicles and keep things consistent

Exactly.

So don't try to use that experience in determining the effect of one specific variable.

The one thing I have been looking for is a class d subwoofer amp that hits notes in the 30 to 45 Hz range with speed and precision, and thus far many of the systems I have heard just can't do it.

And you do not have the capability of attributing that to the class of the amplifier. You've not conducted the proper tests in order to make that determination.

I guess you didn't see my other thread where one of my installer friends invited me over to compare a Hifonics Brutus 1608D @ 2 ohms with a Lunar 2125 @ 2 ohms. The Lunar is rated to deliver 575 watts RMS at that load and the Hifonics topped out @ 800 watts RMS before major clipping occurred!
This test was conducted in a 2002 Tahoe, with a pair of phoenix gold 10" subwoofers in a properly ported enclosure off of a Pioneer DEH-800PRS HU and there was a clear difference on anything with speed and precision.

First, he played some DJ Unk... with the Lunar, then with the Hifonics. I was shrugging my shoulders saying I couldn't tell the difference. Other than the fact that I hate the new commercial rap garbage, the bass sounded the same to me with both amplifiers.

Next, he went back to the Lunar, and put in a Disturbed CD with some heavy double bass pumps. The Lunar hit every one of those double bass drum notes. On to the Hifonics, repeat the test... The double bass drum pumps just blended together and sounded like total ***.

Oddly, this has been consistent with 90% of the Class D subwoofer setups that I have heard over the past month. Rap bass or anything loose, no problem. Play something that requires speed and precision, and for some reason the Class D setups come up short. At first I was blaming it on the fact that many of the class d systems I heard were "budget" amps run @ 1 ohm. Next I blamed bass boost. It wasn't until I heard the Brutus versus the Lunar that I truly gained an appreciation for the difference since I was able to hear both amplifiers in the same vehicle.

Oddly, this all started out with asking my friend how the Hifonics XXV series was because I wanted to put a Colossus on my pair of dd1508s in my Civic. He said, and I quote "Class D is garbage" which is not something I expected from a 20 year old MECP certified installer. Then he invited me over to hear the difference in another friend's Tahoe that was at their shop. Sure, the PG 10s may not be the best BUT there has to be a reason why the Lunar performed WAY better than the Hifonics on those double bass drum pumps with the only difference being a change in amplifiers. In this case, maybe it is strictly budget amp versus quality amp....

I guess you didn't remember that we've already discussed this //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/confused.gif.e820e0216602db4765798ac39d28caa9.gif

You're listening experience does NOTHING to demonstrate that the class of the amplifiers had any impact whatsoever in the results that you heard.

 

[cleansoundzz 10+ year member]

Squeak, he has a right to his opinion. You are just stating your opinion about classes of amplifiers. His opinion about the differences in sound on the subwoofers are not his alone but if you go to other forums and research the same topic many other people have said the same thing.

A friend of mine at a car audio shop who has been in the business for 15+ years told me for subs for sq go with 2 channel amplifiers and for bass only go with mono block amplifiers. The differences may be small and minute however for some people with an ear for clean music, they are enough. You cannot invalidate his and other's opinions on the differences of sound on subs between class AB and class D.

 

[audiolife 5,000+ posts]

Squeak, he has a right to his opinion. You are just stating your opinion about classes of amplifiers. His opinion about the differences in sound on the subwoofers are not his alone but if you go to other forums and research the same topic many other people have said the same thing.
A friend of mine at a car audio shop who has been in the business for 15+ years told me for subs for sq go with 2 channel amplifiers and for bass only go with mono block amplifiers. The differences may be small and minute however for some people with an ear for clean music, they are enough. You cannot invalidate his and other's opinions on the differences of sound on subs between class AB and class D.

Actually what sounds like preaching/opinion to you he is in actuality asking for proof...swapping out an amp without actual specs, measurements and etcetera is just an accumulative conclusion....

 

[gunz4me 10+ year member]

Sorry, I don't have access to a mobile test lab handy to make what I've heard more "scientific".

Oddly, out of all the setups I heard, the Digital Designs Class D amp (forgot model) on a pair of 3510s was fast and accurate in a friend's 1996 GMC Full Sized Extended cab truck. Another setup I heard that was fairly accurate was a Memphis Mojo 2500 pushing a 12" Alpine Type X @ 2 ohms in a 2008 Civic Si. I don't know who owned the Civic but I was called to audition the system before the guy came to pick his car up by my friend who manages the shop.

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

Squeak, he has a right to his opinion.

It's an opinion based on flawed experimentation and faulty logic.

His opinion can be wrong, and his experience can lead him to draw invalid conclusions.

Another one of the other problems with these discussions is that people for some reason think that their "opinion" in infallible and indisputable. That is nonsense. Opinions can be wrong.

I can be of the opinion that the Earth is flat. It's my opinion, I'm entitled to it and you can't tell me I'm wrong! //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif

You are just stating your opinion about classes of amplifiers.

It's not an opinion.

It is thus far demonstrated fact. No one has yet to prove otherwise. If you think you're golden eared enough to hear differences between the class of amplifiers, there's $10k awaiting you.

His opinion about the differences in sound on the subwoofers are not his alone but if you go to other forums and research the same topic many other people have said the same thing.

And they can be wrong too. Many people do exactly what you and gunz4me have done.....they've conducted highly uncontrolled comparisons and try to draw conclusions from those invalid, inconclusive, unreliable and meaningless comparisons.

What's your point?

A friend of mine at a car audio shop who has been in the business for 15+ years told me for subs for sq go with 2 channel amplifiers and for bass only go with mono block amplifiers.

If he was here, I'd tell him he was wrong too //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

The differences may be small and minute however for some people with an ear for clean music, they are enough.

No, they're not. They've lead themselves to the conclusion they can hear a difference because of the reasons I've stated.....uncontrolled, invalid, unreliable and meaningless comparisons.

You cannot invalidate his and other's opinions on the differences of sound on subs between class AB and class D.

Yes, I can.

An opinion can be wrong. There can be (and in this case, is) evidence that contradicts their opinion. Their opinion can be based on flawed experimentation and faulty logic.

And opinion is not infallible. An opinion is not protected from being disproved. Experiments and comparisons can be (and normally are) highly flawed and uncontrolled, and people commonly use these meaningless comparisons to draw conclusions and form their opinion.

If you conduct a highly uncontrolled experiment or comparison, and attempt to draw specific conclusions and opinions from that comparison....your opinion is flawed, invalid and meaningless.

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

Sorry, I don't have access to a mobile test lab handy to make what I've heard more "scientific".

And I'm not saying everyone does.

What I am saying, is don't try to draw conclusions from these flawed comparisons.

You heard a difference...Great! I'm not disputing that.

But you CAN NOT attempt to attribute that difference to one specific variable.....i.e. the class of the amplifier. It's simply not possible for you to do based on the conditions of the comparison. And it's a fallacy and flawed logic to attempt to do so or form any opinions based on the faulty information you've collected.

 

[GAM3OVR 5,000+ posts]

In double blind listening tests, they have proven that no one can consistantly pick whether they hear class ab or class d.....many people will disagree but they are full of shit.

And 1000 clean watts is 1000 clean watts...altho i do believe that AB amps generally draw more amps than do class d based on efficiency. Probably not 100% true but generally

Funny, I just read an article the other day saying the exact opposite of what you just said.

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

Funny, I just read an article the other day saying the exact opposite of what you just said.

Any links to said article.

There is unfortunately a lot of hogwash published by magazines/etc about this topic as well, which helps to delude people and perpetuate the myth.

 

[cleansoundzz 10+ year member]

No offense, but I would tell you to go fly a kite and really I wouldn't care what you said or think. Whatever conclusion a person draws from this discussion, obviously you will not be happy and find a way to go on and on. There are people who for the last 20 + years that have heard so many sytems that they can actually tell the sound difference between classes of amps. Whether you agree with this or think this test is inconclusive at this point I would not give a f*ck. No offense meant but after a while there has to be a point where you say whatever and move on. Monster size class ab amps are made for those who can distinguish the sound differences and also to get people's money too. Whether you agree with people's opinons, whatever. Who cares.

 

[pjhabit 10+ year member]

Numerous experiments have been conducted that would prove exactly this....the audibility of amplifier "classes" (among other things). The test subjects have been everyone from amateur, to audiophile, to designer. And not one has passed the test. Not one has been able to identify an audible difference in amplifier class.

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/ponder.gif.ec2527b23f1d287b60dcbba54f95edba.gif

Any links to said article.

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[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

There are people who for the last 20 + years that have heard so many sytems that they can actually tell the sound difference between classes of amps.

No, they can not.

They might hear a difference and incorrectly ascribe the difference to the class of the amplifier.

Whether you agree with this or think this test is inconclusive at this point I would not give a f*ck.

Ignorance is bliss //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

Monster size class ab amps are made for those who can distinguish the sound differences

No.

 

[bonesninja 5,000+ posts]

do you guys realize that he invented the Squeakinator? I mean squeak practically invented sound waves single-handedly...to argue with him is like trying not be assimilated by the Borg.

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

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//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/confused.gif.e820e0216602db4765798ac39d28caa9.gif

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

do you guys realize that he invented the Squeakinator? I mean squeak practically invented audiowaves single-handedly...to argue with him is like trying not be assimilated by the Borg.

The Squeakinator was crafted by the hand of god.

I was just the messenger //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif