xmax discussion

xmax in a design should be designed around power handling, freuqnecy response, alignment and desired output. so in other words if you want a high output lowend monster sealed you would opt for more xmax/larger boxes ported on the other hand ESP subs like DD 9500 has 18-20mm xmax and you rarely exceed this firgue even with 3kw and huge boxes! the woofer is designed to have a narrower more limited bandwidth and designed to use the port over a wider bandwidth as well futher decresing excursion...

most woofers with 25mm xmax in 2.25 cubes tuned to 35 need in axcess of 3KW to reach peak xmax.. this variers from woofer to woofer and excursion increase above tuning and lower tuned boxes require more excursion above tuning to reach the same output, but in general ported box woofers rearly exceed there xmax rating with rated power...

i have learned over the years using the standad 2 cubed box with a 35hz tune 16-18mm xmax takes about 2kw to be reached and by this time a pair do 12" drivers are doing well into the mid to high 140s...

exceptions like the mag D2s which are often tunded low benfit from the higher xmax becasue they are designed to get low and sound great in smaller very low tuned boxes.. the result is above tuning 60-70hz teh increased xmax means increased output when power input is applied... this takes right at abut 1800 per driver to reach its limits, in 2 tuned to 30... xmax is so over hyped its not even funny..

That's exactly what I was saying in a thread I started about the new Mag's over on SSA. Xmax isn't the end-all, be all...especially when 90% of people don't even reach 40mm of total travel...besides free-air. It takes a silly amount of power power to reach over 40mm in 1 cube sealed or 2 cubes vented. More people need to read your post. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 
That's exactly what I was saying in a thread I started about the new Mag's over on SSA. Xmax isn't the end-all, be all...especially when 90% of people don't even reach 40mm of total travel...besides free-air. It takes a silly amount of power power to reach over 40mm in 1 cube sealed or 2 cubes vented. More people need to read your post. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif
thanks, but that post sucked.. lol i type to fast/don't pay attention to detail. glad i got the point across though... I don't even know SSAs web addy.. hope you don't think i copied your info...

fact is after years of doing this stuff i stopped believing people and tested for myself.

when DW came out with the XBL^2 topology i studied transducers intensively and have come to a conclusion.... i need to make some woofers... hehe

congrats on the great drivers, BTW

 
thanks, but that post sucked.. lol i type to fast/don't pay attention to detail. glad i got the point across though... I don't even know SSAs web addy.. hope you don't think i copied your info... fact is after years of doing this stuff i stopped believing people and tested for myself.

when DW came out with the XBL^2 topology i studied transducers intensively and have come to a conclusion.... i need to make some woofers... hehe

congrats on the great drivers, BTW
No, no, no, I wasn't insinuating anything like that at all. I was just commenting on what you posted and that I think it is benficial for people to learn from posts like that.

I was once in their same boat though - I used to think that large magnets and power-soaking motors were the way to go!! I also used to think that the lower the Qts, the better. Just shows you how much I've learned since I got into audio. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crazy.gif.c13912c32de98515d3142759a824dae7.gif

There is TONS of information on this forum alone...let alone other car audio forums. Search and then READ READ READ. Sure some times you have to sift through the crap, but there are a lot of knowledgeable people on here that post enough to keep the reading interesting.

 
Just to chime in, I think think it's interesting that with all the interest in giant motors and super long throw, pro woofers get pretty loud with like 6mm of xmax; they also can take a beating while weighing around 10 lbs.
Pro Audio subwoofers are featuring more and more Xmax all the time.

How much Xmax is needed? Enough for your application.

But improved BL linearity is never a bad thing if you're into music.

 
Pro Audio subwoofers are featuring more and more Xmax all the time.
How much Xmax is needed? Enough for your application.

But improved BL linearity is never a bad thing if you're into music.
Exactly. All you need is enough to meet the requirements for your application.

A lot of people on here need to keep in mind that PA woofers absolutely **** balls for small sealed or vented subwoofer applications in car audio. They need large vented boxes just to reach 40 Hz most of the time (because, honestly, that's all they need to play down to). But, they are PA subwoofers, not car audio subwoofers. ...basically I don't people to bring up "why don't we use PA subwoofers for a car then" questions, that's all. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

But like Neil said, PA drivers are featuring more and more Xmax all the time. There will soon be a certain brand of 15, 18, and 21" PA subwoofers out that are going to rock out with their c@cks out with both efficiency and Xmax (and a bit of BL linearity too //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif).

 
The first part of this is really Xmax History 101, so feel free to skip the first 4 paragraphs if you want. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif Back in the mid 90's when I first got into the DIY audio thing, Xmax wasn't nearly what it is today. I was on this somewhat well known email list with something like 1800 other people called the "bass list." At that time the champion of all Xmax was the NHT1259. It was the greatest driver ever and I believe it had 11mm Xmax. Shortly after that the ACI DV12 came out with 12mm Xmax and became the new champion. Then Dan Wiggins decided to go for even more and the Shiva came out with I believe 15mm Xmax at that time. But something changed. People stopped using just the physical overhang to rate Xmax. DUMAX came out with the .707x the rest BL value to rate Xmax. This is when I started playing around with drivers as well as Nick at Lambda Acoustics.

We found that you could take a driver with the same physical overhang, say 14mm overhang, but vary the top plate thickness and get different results. For example a 10mm gap with a 38mm coil has 14mm overhang but acts totally differently from an 18mm gap plate with a 46mm coil. Both have 14mm overhang, but the BL curves are totally different and you have much more usable excursion on the driver with the thicker top plate. Likewise, taking a driver with the same 38mm coil and using the two different 18mm and 10mm mm gaps gives nearly the same results. Going by traditional standards of just coil length minus gap and divide by two, you'd think that one would have 14mm and the other 10mm, but in reality they are very similar with the edge actually going to the shorter overhang driver in terms of usable excursion. This is about the time people started throwing out the generally accepted ideas on Xmax and started investing more time and money in FEA analysis and real world testing.

The Xmax race as I remember it was on. TC sounds came out with their 3HP motor after a lot of FEA work. It had a 1.4" gap plate with a 2.3" long coil. By traditional standards the overhang was only 12mm, but by DUMAX results based on the BL curve Xmax was in the range of 23-27mm. This extremely tall gap really changed the way people looked at Xmax. Our HE15 was based on this design with 27mm. We were for a short time the Xmax champions... but it only lasted a few months.

Dan Wiggins came out with the XBL^2 motor topology that would again totally change the way people look at Xmax. There was no simple formula to give Xmax as the coil essentially traveled back and forth between multiple gaps while creating linear force on the coil over a longer range. They achieved Xmax in the 30mm+ range and no longer was the motor design the limiting factor. Now the physical clearances in the frame and suspension parts became the limits. Things were never the same again.

So that all said, what does Xmax really mean? It's a good way to tell how much range of the driver is really useful while keeping distortion inaudible. In speakers, the low end limit for being able to notice distortion is considered to be about 10%. In reality most people can't hear distortion and notice the audibility up until way over 25% even. That seems high, but while at Michigan Tech, the regional AES vice president, Tom Nousaine, came and did a discussion on distortion. Nut just subwoofer distortion, but distortion full range. He played a track of Tom's Diner by Suzanne Vega. This was a blind listening test where the track was played over and over again with progressive amounts of distortion added. The trick was to say when you could hear audible distortion, but we didn't know the amounts until later. In a room of about 20 people, all audio geek AES members, we all sat and listened and would say "ok, the 4th time i could hear it". It turned out that only a couple in the room claimed to hear distortion at the point where 10% was added. Most claimed at 25-50% distortion.

This means that if distortion isn't audible until 10% we can use the driver up until 10% distortion and it will sound clean. Therefore taking the point at which Bl drops to 70% of it's rest value is usually considered the point where the motor will cause the driver to reach 10% distortion and the reason that point is chosen for Xmax ratings.

However, the motor isn't the only thing that causes distortion. Parts physically making noise during their motion, resonances in parts, power compression, etc can all cause distortion to rise over 10% well before the motor is the limit. Klippel had all kinds of other standards to simply measure 10% distortion points. In many cases this would correlate quite well to the 70% Bl mark, but some drivers would hit 10% distortion above and below that point. IMO this is the best way to truly rate a driver by looking at all the factors that contribute to distortion and seeing which brings it to an audible point first, then rating Xmax based on that point. Not everyone has money for a Klippel though //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/frown.gif.a3531fa0534503350665a1e957861287.gif

That all said, how much Xmax is enough? It really depends on so many factors. The largest being the enclosure. You can take a driver with a given Xmax and have it reach that point with 100W or need 1000W depending on which enclosure you put it in. In a sealed enclosure, Xmax is more easy to compare. You also need to factor in the Sd of the driver though. Your maximum output is directly equal to how much air you can move before you reach 10% distortion. The more air you move, the louder you can play. How loud you play at any given point is determined by this formula:

SPL = 20 * Log (Vd * F^2) + 48.4

Vd in liters being calculated from Sd x Xmax

This doesn't tell you how much power you need to reach that level. It just tells you that if you can move the driver a certain range at 10% distortion, it will result in that SPL. The more Xmax the better, but at some point you become impractical as you need unrealistic amounts of power to reach that distance. That is when it becomes more practical to use multiple drivers, each only having to move shorter distances with less power.

In vented enclosures it's harder to compare. The driver has to move less as the port is creating the majority of output around tuning. The point then is that you need to further excite the resonance of the port, and the motor strength of the driver becomes more important at that point than the long travel. However, as you do now have other issues like group delay to contribute to "distortion" of the system, you want the driver operating in an even more linear range. You also still have the driver excursion peak above resonance to deal with, but as others said, with smaller enclosures you typically hit thermal limits before excursion limits. That is a whole different writeup to get to though....

John

 
The first part of this is really Xmax History 101, so feel free to skip the first 4 paragraphs if you want. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif Back in the mid 90's when I first got into the DIY audio thing, Xmax wasn't nearly what it is today. I was on this somewhat well known email list with something like 1800 other people called the "bass list." At that time the champion of all Xmax was the NHT1259. It was the greatest driver ever and I believe it had 11mm Xmax. Shortly after that the ACI DV12 came out with 12mm Xmax and became the new champion. Then Dan Wiggins decided to go for even more and the Shiva came out with I believe 15mm Xmax at that time. But something changed. People stopped using just the physical overhang to rate Xmax. DUMAX came out with the .707x the rest BL value to rate Xmax. This is when I started playing around with drivers as well as Nick at Lambda Acoustics.
We found that you could take a driver with the same physical overhang, say 14mm overhang, but vary the top plate thickness and get different results. For example a 10mm gap with a 38mm coil has 14mm overhang but acts totally differently from an 18mm gap plate with a 46mm coil. Both have 14mm overhang, but the BL curves are totally different and you have much more usable excursion on the driver with the thicker top plate. Likewise, taking a driver with the same 38mm coil and using the two different 18mm and 10mm mm gaps gives nearly the same results. Going by traditional standards of just coil length minus gap and divide by two, you'd think that one would have 14mm and the other 10mm, but in reality they are very similar with the edge actually going to the shorter overhang driver in terms of usable excursion. This is about the time people started throwing out the generally accepted ideas on Xmax and started investing more time and money in FEA analysis and real world testing.

The Xmax race as I remember it was on. TC sounds came out with their 3HP motor after a lot of FEA work. It had a 1.4" gap plate with a 2.3" long coil. By traditional standards the overhang was only 12mm, but by DUMAX results based on the BL curve Xmax was in the range of 23-27mm. This extremely tall gap really changed the way people looked at Xmax. Our HE15 was based on this design with 27mm. We were for a short time the Xmax champions... but it only lasted a few months.

Dan Wiggins came out with the XBL^2 motor topology that would again totally change the way people look at Xmax. There was no simple formula to give Xmax as the coil essentially traveled back and forth between multiple gaps while creating linear force on the coil over a longer range. They achieved Xmax in the 30mm+ range and no longer was the motor design the limiting factor. Now the physical clearances in the frame and suspension parts became the limits. Things were never the same again.

So that all said, what does Xmax really mean? It's a good way to tell how much range of the driver is really useful while keeping distortion inaudible. In speakers, the low end limit for being able to notice distortion is considered to be about 10%. In reality most people can't hear distortion and notice the audibility up until way over 25% even. That seems high, but while at Michigan Tech, the regional AES vice president, Tom Nousaine, came and did a discussion on distortion. Nut just subwoofer distortion, but distortion full range. He played a track of Tom's Diner by Suzanne Vega. This was a blind listening test where the track was played over and over again with progressive amounts of distortion added. The trick was to say when you could hear audible distortion, but we didn't know the amounts until later. In a room of about 20 people, all audio geek AES members, we all sat and listened and would say "ok, the 4th time i could hear it". It turned out that only a couple in the room claimed to hear distortion at the point where 10% was added. Most claimed at 25-50% distortion.

This means that if distortion isn't audible until 10% we can use the driver up until 10% distortion and it will sound clean. Therefore taking the point at which Bl drops to 70% of it's rest value is usually considered the point where the motor will cause the driver to reach 10% distortion and the reason that point is chosen for Xmax ratings.

However, the motor isn't the only thing that causes distortion. Parts physically making noise during their motion, resonances in parts, power compression, etc can all cause distortion to rise over 10% well before the motor is the limit. Klippel had all kinds of other standards to simply measure 10% distortion points. In many cases this would correlate quite well to the 70% Bl mark, but some drivers would hit 10% distortion above and below that point. IMO this is the best way to truly rate a driver by looking at all the factors that contribute to distortion and seeing which brings it to an audible point first, then rating Xmax based on that point. Not everyone has money for a Klippel though //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/frown.gif.a3531fa0534503350665a1e957861287.gif

That all said, how much Xmax is enough? It really depends on so many factors. The largest being the enclosure. You can take a driver with a given Xmax and have it reach that point with 100W or need 1000W depending on which enclosure you put it in. In a sealed enclosure, Xmax is more easy to compare. You also need to factor in the Sd of the driver though. Your maximum output is directly equal to how much air you can move before you reach 10% distortion. The more air you move, the louder you can play. How loud you play at any given point is determined by this formula:

SPL = 20 * Log (Vd * F^2) + 48.4

Vd in liters being calculated from Sd x Xmax

This doesn't tell you how much power you need to reach that level. It just tells you that if you can move the driver a certain range at 10% distortion, it will result in that SPL. The more Xmax the better, but at some point you become impractical as you need unrealistic amounts of power to reach that distance. That is when it becomes more practical to use multiple drivers, each only having to move shorter distances with less power.

In vented enclosures it's harder to compare. The driver has to move less as the port is creating the majority of output around tuning. The point then is that you need to further excite the resonance of the port, and the motor strength of the driver becomes more important at that point than the long travel. However, as you do now have other issues like group delay to contribute to "distortion" of the system, you want the driver operating in an even more linear range. You also still have the driver excursion peak above resonance to deal with, but as others said, with smaller enclosures you typically hit thermal limits before excursion limits. That is a whole different writeup to get to though....

John

Solid.

 
The first part of this is really Xmax History 101, so feel free to skip the first 4 paragraphs if you want. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif Back in the mid 90's when I first got into the DIY audio thing, Xmax wasn't nearly what it is today. I was on this somewhat well known email list with something like 1800 other people called the "bass list." At that time the champion of all Xmax was the NHT1259. It was the greatest driver ever and I believe it had 11mm Xmax. Shortly after that the ACI DV12 came out with 12mm Xmax and became the new champion. Then Dan Wiggins decided to go for even more and the Shiva came out with I believe 15mm Xmax at that time. But something changed. People stopped using just the physical overhang to rate Xmax. DUMAX came out with the .707x the rest BL value to rate Xmax. This is when I started playing around with drivers as well as Nick at Lambda Acoustics.
We found that you could take a driver with the same physical overhang, say 14mm overhang, but vary the top plate thickness and get different results. For example a 10mm gap with a 38mm coil has 14mm overhang but acts totally differently from an 18mm gap plate with a 46mm coil. Both have 14mm overhang, but the BL curves are totally different and you have much more usable excursion on the driver with the thicker top plate. Likewise, taking a driver with the same 38mm coil and using the two different 18mm and 10mm mm gaps gives nearly the same results. Going by traditional standards of just coil length minus gap and divide by two, you'd think that one would have 14mm and the other 10mm, but in reality they are very similar with the edge actually going to the shorter overhang driver in terms of usable excursion. This is about the time people started throwing out the generally accepted ideas on Xmax and started investing more time and money in FEA analysis and real world testing.

The Xmax race as I remember it was on. TC sounds came out with their 3HP motor after a lot of FEA work. It had a 1.4" gap plate with a 2.3" long coil. By traditional standards the overhang was only 12mm, but by DUMAX results based on the BL curve Xmax was in the range of 23-27mm. This extremely tall gap really changed the way people looked at Xmax. Our HE15 was based on this design with 27mm. We were for a short time the Xmax champions... but it only lasted a few months.

Dan Wiggins came out with the XBL^2 motor topology that would again totally change the way people look at Xmax. There was no simple formula to give Xmax as the coil essentially traveled back and forth between multiple gaps while creating linear force on the coil over a longer range. They achieved Xmax in the 30mm+ range and no longer was the motor design the limiting factor. Now the physical clearances in the frame and suspension parts became the limits. Things were never the same again.

So that all said, what does Xmax really mean? It's a good way to tell how much range of the driver is really useful while keeping distortion inaudible. In speakers, the low end limit for being able to notice distortion is considered to be about 10%. In reality most people can't hear distortion and notice the audibility up until way over 25% even. That seems high, but while at Michigan Tech, the regional AES vice president, Tom Nousaine, came and did a discussion on distortion. Nut just subwoofer distortion, but distortion full range. He played a track of Tom's Diner by Suzanne Vega. This was a blind listening test where the track was played over and over again with progressive amounts of distortion added. The trick was to say when you could hear audible distortion, but we didn't know the amounts until later. In a room of about 20 people, all audio geek AES members, we all sat and listened and would say "ok, the 4th time i could hear it". It turned out that only a couple in the room claimed to hear distortion at the point where 10% was added. Most claimed at 25-50% distortion.

This means that if distortion isn't audible until 10% we can use the driver up until 10% distortion and it will sound clean. Therefore taking the point at which Bl drops to 70% of it's rest value is usually considered the point where the motor will cause the driver to reach 10% distortion and the reason that point is chosen for Xmax ratings.

However, the motor isn't the only thing that causes distortion. Parts physically making noise during their motion, resonances in parts, power compression, etc can all cause distortion to rise over 10% well before the motor is the limit. Klippel had all kinds of other standards to simply measure 10% distortion points. In many cases this would correlate quite well to the 70% Bl mark, but some drivers would hit 10% distortion above and below that point. IMO this is the best way to truly rate a driver by looking at all the factors that contribute to distortion and seeing which brings it to an audible point first, then rating Xmax based on that point. Not everyone has money for a Klippel though //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/frown.gif.a3531fa0534503350665a1e957861287.gif

That all said, how much Xmax is enough? It really depends on so many factors. The largest being the enclosure. You can take a driver with a given Xmax and have it reach that point with 100W or need 1000W depending on which enclosure you put it in. In a sealed enclosure, Xmax is more easy to compare. You also need to factor in the Sd of the driver though. Your maximum output is directly equal to how much air you can move before you reach 10% distortion. The more air you move, the louder you can play. How loud you play at any given point is determined by this formula:

SPL = 20 * Log (Vd * F^2) + 48.4

Vd in liters being calculated from Sd x Xmax

This doesn't tell you how much power you need to reach that level. It just tells you that if you can move the driver a certain range at 10% distortion, it will result in that SPL. The more Xmax the better, but at some point you become impractical as you need unrealistic amounts of power to reach that distance. That is when it becomes more practical to use multiple drivers, each only having to move shorter distances with less power.

In vented enclosures it's harder to compare. The driver has to move less as the port is creating the majority of output around tuning. The point then is that you need to further excite the resonance of the port, and the motor strength of the driver becomes more important at that point than the long travel. However, as you do now have other issues like group delay to contribute to "distortion" of the system, you want the driver operating in an even more linear range. You also still have the driver excursion peak above resonance to deal with, but as others said, with smaller enclosures you typically hit thermal limits before excursion limits. That is a whole different writeup to get to though....

John
Very, very nice, I enjoyed reading that. One question - what is F in the SPL equation that you gave?

 
Very, very nice, I enjoyed reading that. One question - what is F in the SPL equation that you gave?
F is the frequency you are looking for the SPL at. So..

SPL = 20 * Log (3L * 30hz^2) + 48.4 = 117dB at 30hz if your driver displaces 3L of air.

SPL = 20 * Log (3L * 40hz^2) + 48.4 = 122dB at 40hz with the same displacement.

John

 
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