Winners only.
- Thread starter Slo_Ride
- Start date
- Replies 24K
- Views 592K
because the ruling puts the POTUS over the executive order! He is not bound to it.
The subject matter experts agree that he can do whatever he wants in disregard of law/policy/procedure?
YOU quoted a guy who said the POTUS is obliged to follow procedures he has established.
That is fair.
Has anyone (including subject matter experts) presented the procedures that Trump established that allow him to declassify by thought?
Jimi77
CarAudio.com VIP
Jimi77
CarAudio.com VIP
He thought the procedures into existence. That puts Biden in an interesting position because can he follow Trump procedures for which there are no written or spoken record?
As for all the experts claiming Trump can indeed declassify documents with but a thought, there a bunch of experts who told Trump they could overturn the elections, challenge the electors, use alternate electors, etc, etc, etc. Some of them got fined and suspended.
While I suspect Trump will never end up in court over the docs (it's my belief FBI, et al just wanted to plug the intel hole), I'd love to see the "I think and therefore they're declassified" defense.
BTW, if you've been following the declassification/release of the Warren Commission documents, that Trump "thought" he was going to release, we can see how the real process stands in stark contrast to the "I think and therefore they're declassified" defense.
Jimi77
CarAudio.com VIP
Department of the Navy v. Egan? Where does it say the POTUS is above executive orders? Again, I question if you've read the very evidence you post to support your positions? Amazing, I'll wait for you to cite the relevant sections of the opinion.
How US presidents can declassify documents | verifythis.com
you guys still want to argue your opinions against the facts?
and for the record. . . i would argue that YES . . . under these rulings Trump, Biden, and Pence all can just say "I declassified these documents" and I would feel they have a valid defense.
Biden is in more of a pickle though because your boy is not so smart and stood on national television and apologized for having documents that "he shouldn't have had". Makes it a bit tougher to argue in court if he tries to walk it back.
Biden is in more of a pickle though because your boy is not so smart and stood on national television and apologized for having documents that "he shouldn't have had". Makes it a bit tougher to argue in court if he tries to walk it back.
Jimi77
CarAudio.com VIP
Again, it's like you don't read what you post:
The U.S. Second Circuit Court of Appeals wrote in a 2020 decision about whether statements made by then-President Trump declassified the existence of a CIA program that “declassification, even by the president, must follow established procedures."
It's obvious you didn't read Navy v Egan or check on McClanahan. McClanahan has a dog in the fight, so yeah of course he wants maximum exposure of gov't secrets. While I'm sure McClanahan is a smart fellow, I'll take the judges on the US Second Circuit Court of Appeals, since they are not only "experts" but actually have a say-so.
Furthermore, VerifyThis.com clearly erred when they made this statement:
The Supreme Court determined in its 1988 decision on Department of the Navy v. Egan that the president’s power over classified information comes from executive authority granted by Article II, Section 2 of the U.S. Constitution, which says, in part, that the “President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States.”
Again, obviously you don't read the evidence you cite to back your claims. Let us know when you've gotten done reading Navy v Egan. I can understand why the right is suddenly citing Navy v Egan again, as it got Trump out of binds in the past, but clearly it isn't applicable to his "I think and therefore I declassify" defense.
Jimi77
CarAudio.com VIP
Jimi77
CarAudio.com VIP
Just to clarify what we/I have witnessed regarding the defenses Trump's used to dismiss Trump's possession of classified intel in chronological order:
1) Initially Trump claimed he turned everything over.
2) Then it was a "Deep State" raid (vs a search warrant).
3) The documents were only alleged to be there.
4) The photos of classified docs were fakes.
5) The docs were planted.
6) And finally the "I think and therefore I declassify" defense.
This is odd. If Trump truly declassified the docs in question, then all he had to say was "The rest of the stuff I have was declassified by power of thought" - game, set and match. Maybe I'm just a skeptical person, but that stinks of bullshyt.
Then we're presented with Executive Orders that contradict that POTUS can declassify whatever, whenever, however he pleases. So once that argument fails we're told the POTUS isn't subject to executive orders.
Then Navy v Egan is trotted out, probably because it worked early on Trump's administration when the Left questioned who should or shouldn't be getting security clearances in the WH. And Egan was an excellent defense of Trump's power to issue security clearances to "whoever" because Navy v Egan was a case about how the Navy handles Egan's security clearance and states that the Executive Branch enjoys relatively unfettered power to issue security clearances. However, Navy v Egan has little mention of classified intel and nowhere states that POTUS has unfettered power to declassify intel. However, POTUS does seem to enjoy unfettered power to classify intel (not founded in Navy v Egan).
1) Initially Trump claimed he turned everything over.
2) Then it was a "Deep State" raid (vs a search warrant).
3) The documents were only alleged to be there.
4) The photos of classified docs were fakes.
5) The docs were planted.
6) And finally the "I think and therefore I declassify" defense.
This is odd. If Trump truly declassified the docs in question, then all he had to say was "The rest of the stuff I have was declassified by power of thought" - game, set and match. Maybe I'm just a skeptical person, but that stinks of bullshyt.
Then we're presented with Executive Orders that contradict that POTUS can declassify whatever, whenever, however he pleases. So once that argument fails we're told the POTUS isn't subject to executive orders.
Then Navy v Egan is trotted out, probably because it worked early on Trump's administration when the Left questioned who should or shouldn't be getting security clearances in the WH. And Egan was an excellent defense of Trump's power to issue security clearances to "whoever" because Navy v Egan was a case about how the Navy handles Egan's security clearance and states that the Executive Branch enjoys relatively unfettered power to issue security clearances. However, Navy v Egan has little mention of classified intel and nowhere states that POTUS has unfettered power to declassify intel. However, POTUS does seem to enjoy unfettered power to classify intel (not founded in Navy v Egan).
the 2020 ruling that you are citing is not about declassifying documents. . . it is about an actual CIA Program that Trump wanted to declassify out of existence.
And if you actually read the 2020 ruling, it goes on to state that there are specific terms in which the POTUS cannot declassify which i addressed already. . . when it deals with Nuclear information because it has dual classification
The source that Verifythis is quoting: “Richard Immerman, a historian and professor at Temple University, told VERIFY.”
I’m confident there is an article out there where someone “told” the author that it is proved that Bigfoot exists.
I’d prefer to see the Federal Regulation or a specific court ruling over what someone “told” someone.
Information from the game of telephone is not very convincing to me.
For exmaple, a Federal Appeals Court decision: "A federal appeals court in a 2020 Freedom of Information Act case, New York Times v. CIA, underscored that point: “Declassification cannot occur unless designated officials follow specified procedures,” the court said."
This is not "so-and-so said" but the COURT DECISION said.
They are describing the documents as classified, which means they have not accepted that he declassified them with his thoughts.
Further, the court is obviously not accepting the simple claim that the documents were declassified "by thought", or the discussion would have been long ended: "In its decision, the three-judge panel of the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals wrote that Trump “has not even attempted to show that he has a need to know the information contained in the classified documents. … Nor has he established that the current administration has waived that requirement for these documents.”
We are arguing with facts, YOU are the one arguing with opinions (yours and others).
I will gladly accept any facts you can provide that show documents can be declassified simply by thinking about it. A court decision, a Federal Regulation, a statute, Executive Order, anything verifiable as a legal standing.
I think that's a pretty reasonable request when debating topics like this.
Last edited:
Eggs
Junior Member
Eggs
Junior Member
About this thread
