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ThxOne

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I have specifically spoken to your complaints about me plenty of times.
Many of them are hypocritical as you complain about something I do, while doing that exact something yourself.
Never said I don't do hypocritical things but I won't hide behind hypocrisy either.
 

Bobbytwonames

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Current rulings DO allow presidents to reclassify documents with no process. A president can literally just go "declassified" and its done. Not only that, the rulings even give the president the authority to disclose or NOT disclose anything he wants about said documents.

So when I read you guys ridiculing Trump for 'thinking he can just say declassified' . . . well, YEA! The jokes on YOU because he can literally do that as a sitting president.

What Trump is ACTUALLY being accused of is authorizing officials from a foreign government to receive classified national security information that was itself derived from a different foreign government intelligence gathering.
Then let it play out. I highly doubt that a President can simply look at a document and say poof it's declssified without a trail of paperwork. If that were the case then 20 or 30 years later he could say, "I declassified those 20 years ago because I looked at them and said it to myself." That doesn't make any common sense. That would give any President ever plausible deniability forever. Put another quarter in that machine kid. Nice try.
 
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Kayge

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Then let it play out. I highly doubt that a President can simply look at a document and say poof it's declssified without a trail of paperwork. If that were the case then 20 or 30 years later he could say, "I declassified those 20 years ago because I looked at them and said it to myself." That doesn't make any common sense. That would give any President ever plausible deniability forever. Put another quarter in that machine kid. Nice try.
Saying "you highly doubt it" does not change the actual ruling,

The question is not whether the president can spontaneously declassify information . . . the ruling already says he can. READ THE RULING "KID"!

The real debate about all these documents is whether or not Trump was permitted to disclose sensitive security information to who ever he wanted. The left says no. . . but the ruling AGAIN states that the president can over rule his appointees actions because within the executive branch the PRESIDENT is the Boss.

So instead of just being a band wagon boy and ridiculing Trump for the things that he was actually well within his rights to do as a sitting president. . . you should actually educate yourself on what he is ACTUALLY being scrutinized for THEN look at the ruling on his rights as a sitting president before you act like you have an intelligent opinion on the matter.

Especially since you claim you only 'deal in facts' and all.

Here's a quarter if you need one. . . .
 
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Jimi77

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Then let it play out. I highly doubt that a President can simply look at a document and say poof it's declssified without a trail of paperwork. If that were the case then 20 or 30 years later he could say, "I declassified those 20 years ago because I looked at them and said it to myself." That doesn't make any common sense. That would give any President ever plausible deniability forever. Put another quarter in that machine kid. Nice try.
That's fine. Biden thought his trove of docs declassified and Trump thought his docs declassified. And guess what VP's can also declassify docs so Pence thought his docs declassified. They're all in the clear. And we were all making such a big deal out of nothing.
 

RobGMN

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Saying "you highly doubt it" does not change the actual ruling,

The question is not whether the president can spontaneously declassify information . . . the ruling already says he can. READ THE RULING "KID"!

The real debate about all these documents is whether or not Trump was permitted to disclose sensitive security information to who ever he wanted. The left says no. . . but the ruling AGAIN states that the president can over rule his appointees actions because within the executive branch the PRESIDENT is the Boss.

So instead of just being a band wagon boy and ridiculing Trump for the things that he was actually well within his rights to do as a sitting president. . . you should actually educate yourself on what he is ACTUALLY being scrutinized for THEN look at the ruling on his rights as a sitting president before you act like you have an intelligent opinion on the matter.

Especially since you claim you only 'deal in facts' and all.

Here's a quarter if you need one. . . .
Can you share a link to this ruling? It'd be an interesting read for anyone involved in the discussion about classified docs.

Was it a ruling for a specific instance, or does it say that all prior rules are invalidated and this is the new rule to be used until they rewrite federal regs, etc?
"New York Times v. CIA, underscored the point: “Declassification cannot occur unless designated officials follow specified procedures,” the court said."
 

Jimi77

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Saying "you highly doubt it" does not change the actual ruling,

The question is not whether the president can spontaneously declassify information . . . the ruling already says he can. READ THE RULING "KID"!

The real debate about all these documents is whether or not Trump was permitted to disclose sensitive security information to who ever he wanted. The left says no. . . but the ruling AGAIN states that the president can over rule his appointees actions because within the executive branch the PRESIDENT is the Boss.

So instead of just being a band wagon boy and ridiculing Trump for the things that he was actually well within his rights to do as a sitting president. . . you should actually educate yourself on what he is ACTUALLY being scrutinized for THEN look at the ruling on his rights as a sitting president before you act like you have an intelligent opinion on the matter.

Especially since you claim you only 'deal in facts' and all.

Here's a quarter if you need one. . . .
I've held Top Secret Clearance in the Military and worked for DHS, I'm unaware of this ruling that states Presidents can spontaneously declassify intel. What ruling is this? My experience regarding classified intel is the POTUS (or anybody with the ability to declassify docs) has to go thru the bureaucratic process to declassify intel. Of course part of that process would be push back - ie CIA director so-and-so doesn't think we should declassify this intel for reasons x,y & z. The intel doesn't immediately become declassified because Trump said, "Let's declassify this." That just irresponsible.

It's astonishing the crap Trump's loyal fans will come up with to defend the indefensible.

That said in all three cases, we're probably looking at non-criminal offenses. At least in the case of Trump and Pence they aren't handling State Secrets anymore, we've got 2 more years of Biden at the helm and half the time I'm not sure Sleepy Joe knows where he is or what he is doing.
 

Kayge

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Can you share a link to this ruling? It'd be an interesting read for anyone involved in the discussion about classified docs.

Was it a ruling for a specific instance, or does it say that all prior rules are invalidated and this is the new rule to be used until they rewrite federal regs, etc?
"New York Times v. CIA, underscored the point: “Declassification cannot occur unless designated officials follow specified procedures,” the court said."
Here is the court ruling in Navy vs Egan. Its not so much in laymen terms, but this is the ruling the expressly gives the president the authority to declassify documents.

Department of the Navy v. Egan :: 484 U.S. 518 (1988) :: Justia US Supreme Court Center

Here is the executive order following the ruling. . .

The President Executive Order 13526 | National Archives

From the article:
The president’s classification and declassification powers are broad


Experts agreed that the president, as commander-in-chief, is ultimately responsible for classification and declassification. When someone lower in the chain of command handles classification and declassification duties — which is usually how it’s done — it’s because they have been delegated to do so by the president directly, or by an appointee chosen by the president.

The majority ruling in the 1988 Supreme Court case Department of Navy vs. Egan — which addressed the legal recourse of a Navy employee who had been denied a security clearance — addresses this line of authority.

“The President, after all, is the ‘Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States’” according to Article II of the Constitution, the court’s majority wrote. “His authority to classify and control access to information bearing on national security … flows primarily from this constitutional investment of power in the President, and exists quite apart from any explicit congressional grant.”
 

Kayge

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I've held Top Secret Clearance in the Military and worked for DHS, I'm unaware of this ruling that states Presidents can spontaneously declassify intel. What ruling is this? My experience regarding classified intel is the POTUS (or anybody with the ability to declassify docs) has to go thru the bureaucratic process to declassify intel. Of course part of that process would be push back - ie CIA director so-and-so doesn't think we should declassify this intel for reasons x,y & z. The intel doesn't immediately become declassified because Trump said, "Let's declassify this." That just irresponsible.

It's astonishing the crap Trump's loyal fans will come up with to defend the indefensible.

That said in all three cases, we're probably looking at non-criminal offenses. At least in the case of Trump and Pence they aren't handling State Secrets anymore, we've got 2 more years of Biden at the helm and half the time I'm not sure Sleepy Joe knows where he is or what he is doing.
I posted it all for you. When the story first broke. . . I thought the same thing. "How could a president just wave his hand over a document and declare it declassified"

Well, they literally can do just that.

There are exceptions when it comes to security documents revolving around matters like nuclear codes and such. .. but outside of that, the sitting president controls what is classified or not. And despite what people have been saying, there is not a long drawn-out process that a sitting president has to weight through to de-classify them.

You guys have to understand. If the way Trump declassified the documents was illegal it would have been open and shut. . . Trump would probably be sitting under a prison right now. That IS NOT what is being disputed.

The real argument is whether or not Trump had the rights to share those documents that he claims he declassified to other national entities without going through any process or asking permission from his appointees.

This is the grey area that is being disputed because the actual ruling has weak language on this matter, so the level of what Trump was permitted to do is being challenged by those who want to bury him.
 
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Jimi77

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I posted it all for you. When the story first broke. . . I thought the same thing. "How could a president just wave his hand over a document and declare it declassified"

Well, they literally can do just that.

There are exceptions when it comes to security documents revolving around matters like nuclear codes and such. .. but outside of that, the sitting president controls what is classified or not. And despite what people have been saying, there is not a long drawn-out process that a sitting president has to weight through to de-classify them.

You guys have to understand. If the way Trump declassified the documents was illegal it would have been open and shut. . . Trump would probably be sitting under a prison right now. That IS NOT what is being disputed.

The real argument is whether or not Trump had the rights to share those documents that he claims he declassified to other national entities without going through any process or asking permission from his appointees.

This is the grey area that is being disputed because the actual ruling has weak language on this matter, so the level of what Trump was permitted to do is being challenged by those who want to bury him.
I actually worked for DHS, there is a long drawn out process. Everything the gov't does is a long drawn our process. If there were no backstop, you'd have idiots like Trump who has no respect for intel just declassifying shyt willy nilly and Biden (and Reagan before him) declassifying material while suffering from dementia.

But hey if it makes you feel better to believe Trump "thought" his treasure trove of classified docs unclassified, you run with that. It is curious that "I thought them declassified" was Trump's 3rd version of events, after the docs were planted and it's all just allegations. If he thought them declassified, why not just say so in the first place? Or even avoid the whole search altogther - "Too Deep State FBI, I'm only sitting on docs I thought declassified - **** it!" I'm not giving Trump, Biden or Pence that pass (BTW VP's ability to declassify is right there with the POTUS, so Biden is doubly covered).
 

Kayge

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I actually worked for DHS, there is a long drawn out process. Everything the gov't does is a long drawn our process. If there were no backstop, you'd have idiots like Trump who has no respect for intel just declassifying shyt willy nilly and Biden (and Reagan before him) declassifying material while suffering from dementia.

But hey if it makes you feel better to believe Trump "thought" his treasure trove of classified docs unclassified, you run with that. It is curious that "I thought them declassified" was Trump's 3rd version of events, after the docs were planted and it's all just allegations. If he thought them declassified, why not just say so in the first place? Or even avoid the whole search altogther - "Too Deep State FBI, I'm only sitting on docs I thought declassified - **** it!" I'm not giving Trump, Biden or Pence that pass (BTW VP's ability to declassify is right there with the POTUS, so Biden is doubly covered).
Read the order dude.

This is not a matter of my opinion. This is what the executive order and the ruling says.

Don't shoot the messenger.
 

Jimi77

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Here is the court ruling in Navy vs Egan. Its not so much in laymen terms, but this is the ruling the expressly gives the president the authority to declassify documents.

Department of the Navy v. Egan :: 484 U.S. 518 (1988) :: Justia US Supreme Court Center

Here is the executive order following the ruling. . .

The President Executive Order 13526 | National Archives
Did you read it? It gives the President the power to declassify and downgrade documents. It doesn't give him the unfettered ability to declassify and downgrade documents. Specifically he can declassify documents that no longer meet the standard for classification. For example, Biden cannot declassify an undercover agent's identity and role because he "thinks about it" while in one of his moments of confusion. There is a process in place to prevent stupid shyt like that from happening. They way some people twist and distort reality to defend their guy is beyond amazing.

Sec. 3.1. Authority for Declassification. (a) Information shall be declassified as soon as it no longer meets the standards for classification under this order.
(b) Information shall be declassified or downgraded by:

(1) the official who authorized the original classification, if that official is still serving in the same position and has original classification authority;
(2) the originator’s current successor in function, if that individual has original classification authority;
(3) a supervisory official of either the originator or his or her successor in function, if the supervisory official has original classification authority; or (4) officials delegated declassification authority in writing by the agency head or the senior agency official of the originating agency.
 

Kayge

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Did you read it? It gives the President the power to declassify and downgrade documents. It doesn't give him the unfettered ability to declassify and downgrade documents. Specifically he can declassify documents that no longer meet the standard for classification. For example, Biden cannot declassify an undercover agent's identity and role because he "thinks about it" while in one of his moments of confusion. There is a process in place to prevent stupid shyt like that from happening. They way some people twist and distort reality to defend their guy is beyond amazing.

Sec. 3.1. Authority for Declassification. (a) Information shall be declassified as soon as it no longer meets the standards for classification under this order.
(b) Information shall be declassified or downgraded by:

(1) the official who authorized the original classification, if that official is still serving in the same position and has original classification authority;
(2) the originator’s current successor in function, if that individual has original classification authority;
(3) a supervisory official of either the originator or his or her successor in function, if the supervisory official has original classification authority; or (4) officials delegated declassification authority in writing by the agency head or the senior agency official of the originating agency.
What you are reading in the order pertains to a declassification process that applies to people lower in the chain of command. Declassification is usually delegated by the president directly, or by an appointee chosen by the president. However, in the ruling it specifically states this. . .

"The President, after all, is the ‘Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States’". His authority to classify and control access to information bearing on national security ... flows primarily from this constitutional investment of power in the President, and exists quite apart from any explicit congressional grant."
Here is another direct quote from Steven Aftergood who is the director of the FAS.

The president is not obliged to follow any procedures other than those that he himself has prescribed. And he can change those."
The president even has the ability to modify or re-write the executive order itself.

So look, I'm not arguing that its bad practice to give a sitting president this much authority over classified documents. Sorry if this bit of news is scary to everyone. . but based on the ruling, Trump is not wrong when he says he had the power to declassify those documents at his own will and discretion. At the very least. . its a valid argument

So what he is ACTAULLY being accused of is sharing the information before it was actually declassified.

FEDS find documents
They say you shared secret information
Trump says "oh yea . . . those. . . I declared those de-classified"

The burden of proof is on the FEDS. If they had a strong case i think they would have met that burden by now. They don't, so they are challenging the law and the court ruling
 

RobGMN

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Here is the court ruling in Navy vs Egan. Its not so much in laymen terms, but this is the ruling the expressly gives the president the authority to declassify documents.

Department of the Navy v. Egan :: 484 U.S. 518 (1988) :: Justia US Supreme Court Center

Here is the executive order following the ruling. . .

The President Executive Order 13526 | National Archives
I read through them and can see where the POTUS and Vice-POTUS have the authority to classify and declassify, and can delegate that authority to others, but cannot see where it says they can do so without following the formal procedures (as in "thinking" a document into or out of a classified state).

"President" is mentioned 8 times in the one doc and 60 in the other. Can you point out where it says in this 2009 EO that the process can be merely a "thought"?

What happens if a POTUS "thinks" a document into being classified, but tells no one? Can someone be prosecuted for sharing that classified info when no one but the POTUS knows it is classified?
That's an awfully slippery slope for a court ruling to say no procedures are necessary.
 

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