Why don't competitors use pro audio subs?

[oldschoolboomer 10+ year member]

so nobody has vids?

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

Interesting, so your off-topic irrelevant comments make you a hypocrite. Thank you. That's what I wanted to know. Though you are also a liar as it's pretty easy to see by the chronology and content of the postings that your post was infact a direct response to mine.....but you're not ready to admit that one yet. So we won't press the issue for fear that admitting your errors will likely cause your self-worth to become dangerously low.


Don't bother to respond until you comprehend that your babblings about system efficiency is almost completely unrelated to my original point. It was a minor example of the larger picture, but you can't help but focus on that insignificant detail because it's the only leg holding up your straw man. Don't let the door hit you in the *** on the way out. Ciao //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wave.gif.002382ce7d7c19757ab945cc69819de1.gif

You are simply not even trying anymore. really, Im disappointed in this latest pathetic attempt. Now you want us to believe my comments on power handling, BL, and other actual speaker specifications are unrelated to speaker efficiency. Your lack of understanding of basic speaker specs and how they relate is showing. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif But we both know this is merely another attempt to remove the spotlight from your confusion over the difference in speaker efficiency, and system efficiency. Nice try.

This is my favorite part: "Don't bother to respond until you comprehend that your babblings about system efficiency is almost completely unrelated to my original point." Now its not YOU that went off topic about system efficiency, it was me. lol Sure pal, whatever gets your ego through the night. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

You cant even come up with a decent sarcasm on your own. Did you literally copy/paste my 'door hitting you in the ***, ciao' comment? I obviously bothered you so much that you hoped to get me back with the very same words. Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery. So, unfortunately for you, Im not bothered, Im loving it. You should at least change the wording slightly so you look like you applied at least a couple brain cells to forms your own thought. Or *gasp* come up with your own sarcasms altogether. Lets try this one... Ctes smells like an over used crack pipe. When you reply... dont forget to remove Ctes from the sarcasm, and put my name in instead.

For the record, I truly do believe you are smoking crack tonight, as your latest replies are making less and less sense, even for you.

wheeeeee!

 

[oldschoolboomer 10+ year member]

ok I will explain it for you brainiacs out there in a way you can understand. The johnson spring coefficient in the typical pro-audio driver lacks the ball bearings (it's all ball bearings these days) to properly compress the hydrogen and oxygen mixture in an automotive environment. The reverse drag action forces are too much for the non stiff cones with no fetzer force at higher power levels. Kinda like the old pioneer truck boxes, sound great outside with madonna playing, but lack the charlie sheens when compared to lower Q subs inside a closed cabin. get it?

 

[Ctesibius 10+ year member]

You are simply not even trying anymore. really, Im disappointed in this latest pathetic attempt. Now you want us to believe my comments on power handling, BL, and other actual speaker specifications are unrelated to speaker efficiency. Your lack of understanding of basic speaker specs and how they relate is showing. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif Unfortunately for you, my understanding of speaker physics would trump yours. Your futile attempts to argue your way out of your hole have failed. You are, indeed, both a hypocrite and a liar.

But we both know this is merely another attempt to remove the spotlight from your confusion over the difference in speaker efficiency, and system efficiency. Nice try.

And yet you refuse to acknowledge that I have no confusion on the topic, but instead you are confused as to what I was actually discussing. You've demonstrated this several times throughout the thread, and blatantly ignore the times I've corrected you on this.

This is my favorite part: "Don't bother to respond until you comprehend that your babblings about system efficiency is almost completely unrelated to my original point." Now its not YOU that went off topic about system efficiency, it was me. lol Sure pal, whatever gets your ego through the night. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

Again demonstrating your idiocy and failure to comprehend as this is what I've been stating all along. It is but one example of things to focus on before increasing power. Keep proving that you are indeed the one who has been confused this whole time. We won't hate you for it, we promise.

You cant even come up with a decent sarcasm on your own. Did you literally copy/paste my 'door hitting you in the ***, ciao' comment?

Apparently you haven't noticed that is far from the first time in this debate I've copy n pasted your comments //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

For the record, I truly do believe you are smoking crack tonight, as your latest replies are making less and less sense, even for you.

The only person unable to comprehend them is you //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

 

[DidUHearThat? 10+ year member]

 

[Ctesibius 10+ year member]

Okay, this time I am seriously exiting the thread. And just to make my life easier, Alcoholic is going on the ignore list.

 

[DidUHearThat? 10+ year member]

 

[DidUHearThat? 10+ year member]

 

[DidUHearThat? 10+ year member]

 

[DidUHearThat? 10+ year member]

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif Unfortunately for you, my understanding of speaker physics would trump yours.

Yes, your understanding of 'speaker physics' is so amazing that its too busy being used by Nasa to even post one shred of information about how Im so obviously wrong. I guess the left side of your brain is far too busy with the Nasa people, only leaving the right side of your brain to deal with little old me. So tell me, tell all of us Mr Toocockytoevengiveananswer... how does power handling NOT relate to speaker efficiency. That's obviously what you and your vast knowledge of 'speaker physics' is implying, so put your money where your mouth is. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/idea.gif.5acb6a39a9b92425414c316dda202bad.gif But we both know you wont, you will instead try to focus on me, as you have done this entire thread. frankly, your misunderstanding of the difference between speaker efficiency and system efficiency tells me your experience with 'speaker physics' is limited, at best. Tell you what, I'll get you started, try this... http://www.wikipedia.com. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

Again demonstrating your idiocy and failure to comprehend as this is what I've been stating all along. It is but one example of things to focus on before increasing power. Keep proving that you are indeed the one who has been confused this whole time. We won't hate you for it, we promise.

Ohhhhh, its "but one example" of things to focus on before increasing power. Gosh, what a great thing to bring up in a thread discussing something completely different! lol Why dont we mention the paint job on the insides of the ports, since we are bringing up topics completely unrelated to the discussion at hand. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

Apparently you haven't noticed that is far from the first time in this debate I've copy n pasted your comments //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

Oh Ive noticed, this was merely the first time it was so blatant that it was worthy of my time replying. Again, imitation is the most sincere form of flattery. So i guess I should have been flattered all along. Nice knowing my comments bothered you so much that you tried using them back on me. I didn't set out to bruise your feelings in this thread, btu I have to admit, its been a nice by-product of this discussion.
wheeeee!

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

Okay, this time I am seriously exiting the thread. And just to make my life easier, Alcoholic is going on the ignore list.

Oh noes, he called me alcoholic and put me on ignore. There's nothing left for me to do but cry. I guess Nasa decided they needed his whole brain the rest of the night. He has way too much to do to back up his claims of vast 'speaker physics' knowledge.
//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wave.gif.002382ce7d7c19757ab945cc69819de1.gif

 

[tommyk90 5,000+ posts]

Wow what a trainwreck.

I don't fully comprehend the 10 mm vs. 10 mm discussion.

So you're trying to tell me that a cheap sub moving at full xmax versus a DD 95xx moving at full xmax (they are known for minimal travel) will produce similar numbers?

I'd beg to differ. Sounds strange, but isn't the FORCE that the motor is producing going to create higher SPL given the same amount of xmax? It's kind of hard to explain, so hopefully somebody more technical understands what I'm trying to say.

On to the dante discussion (which shouldn't have happened in the first place), all he did was test and tune his vehicle to the max. If you go back 15 years ago, people were saying how impossible 170 dB was. 10 years ago it was 175. 5 years ago it was 180 dB.

His car is not some SPL anomaly, it's just a very finely tuned speaker enclosure on wheels. To use any extreme car in a discussion about efficiency in a real world situation is an effort in futility. Those cars are literally speaker enclosures. There's no "cabin" in a real world sense.

Anyways, I'd be interested to see some of these super efficient speakers at least tried in today's SPL vehicles. If somebody wants to send me one I'd be more than happy to test one out. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

Hell IDK. I just build and test and make shit go boom. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

Finally someone with some real world experience chimes in.

Wow what a trainwreck.
I don't fully comprehend the 10 mm vs. 10 mm discussion.

So you're trying to tell me that a cheap sub moving at full xmax versus a DD 95xx moving at full xmax (they are known for minimal travel) will produce similar numbers?

I'd beg to differ. Sounds strange, but isn't the FORCE that the motor is producing going to create higher SPL given the same amount of xmax? It's kind of hard to explain, so hopefully somebody more technical understands what I'm trying to say.

On to the dante discussion (which shouldn't have happened in the first place), all he did was test and tune his vehicle to the max. If you go back 15 years ago, people were saying how impossible 170 dB was. 10 years ago it was 175. 5 years ago it was 180 dB.

His car is not some SPL anomaly, it's just a very finely tuned speaker enclosure on wheels. To use any extreme car in a discussion about efficiency in a real world situation is an effort in futility. Those cars are literally speaker enclosures. There's no "cabin" in a real world sense.

Anyways, I'd be interested to see some of these super efficient speakers at least tried in today's SPL vehicles. If somebody wants to send me one I'd be more than happy to test one out. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

Hell IDK. I just build and test and make shit go boom. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

The point of the 10mm vs 10mm xmax is, if both subs are moving the same amount in otherwise the same conditions, they will produce the same acoustic energy. It doesn't matter if one takes 10 watts to do it while the other takes 10,000 watts (say due to suspension stiffness differences). The trick is to find the happy medium between power handling, and excursion. You want to reach maximum excursion, at or very near tuning (where excursion is minimized), without melting the coil. This is why a serious SPL rig that has been tuned precisely (like Dante's) would bottom out the subs horribly if burped at the improper frequency. An SPL rig that is tuned just right is bordering on catastrophic speaker failure every time it burps. lol //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif
To put it another way, the sub is burping at a point where enclosure tuning puts maximum damping on cone excursion (or almost, burp tends to be what Tommy, 10-15 hz above tuning?) so it takes alot of BL to overcome that damping effect. At the same time, pushing the cone to its maximum excursion potential, again while surpassing the enclosure's damping factor on excursion which is at its (almost) maximum. In order to perform this task, (generally) lots of wattage is needed to overcome the stiff speaker suspension and excessive enclosure damping. This wattage needs to be dissipated in the form of heat.

Would you say that's an accurate general description of the controlled chaos of an SPL burp in a finely tuned rig?

 

[tommyk90 5,000+ posts]

Finally someone with some real world experience chimes in.
The point of the 10mm vs 10mm xmax is, if both subs are moving the same amount in otherwise the same conditions, they will produce the same acoustic energy. It doesn't matter if one takes 10 watts to do it while the other takes 10,000 watts (say due to suspension stiffness differences). The trick is to find the happy medium between power handling, and excursion. You want to reach maximum excursion, at or very near tuning (where excursion is minimized), without melting the coil. This is why a serious SPL rig that has been tuned precisely (like Dante's) would bottom out the subs horribly if burped at the improper frequency. An SPL rig that is tuned just right is bordering on catastrophic speaker failure every time it burps. lol //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

To put it another way, the sub is burping at a point where enclosure tuning puts maximum damping on cone excursion (or almost, burp tends to be what Tommy, 10-15 hz above tuning?) so it takes alot of BL to overcome that damping effect. At the same time, pushing the cone to its maximum excursion potential, again while surpassing the enclosure's damping factor on excursion which is at its (almost) maximum. In order to perform this task, (generally) lots of wattage is needed to overcome the stiff speaker suspension and excessive enclosure damping. This wattage needs to be dissipated in the form of heat.

Would you say that's an accurate general description of the controlled chaos of an SPL burp in a finely tuned rig?

Controlled chaos is definitely a good way to describe it. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

The tuning part is a little more tricky in an SPL install. I'd wager that most serious SPL setups aren't built around a specific tuning frequency, rather the optimum box and port size/length that is derived after hours and hours of testing and tuning.

For instance, I have no idea what my setup is actually TUNED to, all I know is where it PEAKS at and what score it does. To put it into perspective so others can understand, one day I was playing around with JUST port lengths. My enclosures use external aeros so changing the length doesn't change the airspace.

However, in one instance I chopped 3" off the port length. Interestingly, my peak frequency stayed the same but I lost a whopping 2.5 dB. This is where numerous other factors come into play. Impedence rise, vehicle resonance, cabin gain, etc. Lots of things going on at once.

The point I was trying to get across with the 10 mm vs. 10 mm thing was that motor force is a driving factor (literally, ha). As a real world example. Think of hitting a wall while counting off 1 second (i.e. one sine wave). You can hit the wall with little force in that one second, or you can put your whole body into it during that 1 second and punch through the wall.

Same amount of movement in the same amount of time, just a whole lot more force behind it.

At least thats the best way I can explain it.

Honestly though, arguments about shit like this never end up well, as evidenced here. The funny thing is the people that argue about this are rarely ones who have ever competed or really built an SPL oriented setup. No offense. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

This is why theories are best left out of the world of SPL. While some can lead you in the right direction, the bottom line is testing and tuning is the only way to maximize SPL.