what does midbass have to do with it????

[oldschool4me 10+ year member]

That is your opinion and differs with many. Aside from the vehicles (and homes and professional applications) where it has been used successfully.
If you follow the steps outlined, I think you will feel differently. Have you tried this? Have you listened to anything using a similar setup? Do you have information that directly disproves what I have outlined above?

Pretty sure there's an AES paper on it, too. Give me a minute to look.

i will let you take over, you explain things better than i do. they are misunderstanding what im saying.

im waiting to see some sq comp installs with no rear fill. links of some please. if rear fill is of no factor then why is it there??

 

[James Bang 5,000+ posts]

been into audio for about 17 years and will never understand this. its like having a home theater system with 2 speakers. to me front and rear is just as important as left and right. might as well be mono imo. maybe its just a few of us that think this way idk.

apples and oranges.

i will let you take over, you explain things better than i do. they are misunderstanding what im saying. im waiting to see some sq comp installs with no rear fill. links of some please. if rear fill is of no factor then why is it there??

Why don't you show these many rear fill sq comp cars.

 

[newusername 10+ year member]

Well, for the sake of it.

Richard Clark's GN (not built by him, of course)

Harry Kimura's Acura Legend

And a ton of other cars built by SpeakerWorks (including the VW Beetle I alluded to earlier).

Those are the notable ones I know of, but there are others as well. Lots of threads out there on this subject already, although not many on this forum.

 

[oldschool4me 10+ year member]

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2384126

http://www.jbl.com/car/featured/installs/tundra_pics/subs_interior.jpg

just look around if you want to see more pics or pick up a magazine. not hard to find lol.

a quote from crutchfield adviser.

"Adjusting for rear fill

Once you have your front speakers installed to your liking, you'll want to make sure that your rear speakers are doing their part to create an ideal soundstage. While personal taste plays a role here, most experts agree that you should adjust the volume level for rear speakers so that you're barely conscious of their presence.

While your front speakers should give you the best midrange and high frequencies possible, your rear speakers can be conventional coaxials or low frequency drivers. Their purpose is to add ambience and depth to your forward soundstage. If they reveal too much high frequency information, they'll "pull" the stereo image to the rear of your vehicle, away from where you want it."

here is another quote

A2507 THE ENERGY TIME CURVE

By Richard Clark

Rear Fill

Even if we were able to achieve 50 mS of reverb time in a car, that amount would only be about one

fourth of the minimum required of a good sounding room. This lack of reverb time is the reason why some

car audio enthusiasts install extra speakers in the rear of the car. When such speakers are properly

mounted and driven by signals low enough in level (preferably on a digital delay), they can enhance the

effect of ambience that is usually lacking in cars. Ideally, the implementation of such speakers contributes

to the often-misunderstood IASCA term "rear fill."

In a good sounding rear filled system, the speakers mounted in the rear of the car should be acoustically

transparent. In other words, they should not be noticeable. A good sounding rear filled system should

cause the front-seated listeners to sense that there is a large open space to their rear. The word "fill" is

used here to refer to addition of reverberant energy to the listening environment. It is this decaying energy

that imparts ambience and the feeling of spaciousness into a sound system

why is a midbass a bad idea for rear fill again? dont knock it til you try it!!! lol

like i said before im not taking away from the importance of freq range for the front stage and not saying to take away from one location and put it in another. just that a midbass rear fill is important and if done propery like devildriver stated, improves the sound of a system. this may not be important to some people just the same as some people dont care to have an hd tv either and say there is no difference and i really dont care. just expressing my opinion and trying to help someone out with information that i have gathered in my experience. people just like to pick people apart and act like they know more than everyone. they would probably sit here and argue with wayne harris about car audio and what he should have done to make Terminator sound better and many are reading this wondering WTF is Terminator. get a grip people. here is a link for those who dont know.

http://www.termpro.com/showcars/terminator/terminator.html

oh and wait.... wait..... whats that in the pic?? below the subs?? ahhhh ahhhh. its a midbass set up. woooow imagine that???? now send him an email and tell him how dumb you think he is for doing such a retarted thing.

im done with this thread and im out.

 

[newusername 10+ year member]

I wouldn't necessarily use Crutchfield as a reference on much. I find their information to be aimed at perpetuating misunderstandings that bring in dollars.

The person who first turned me on to this concept was a guy who goes by the name of werewolf on DIYMA and ECA. I did a lot of reading from there and some listening. Thus my stance here.

 

[BrianChia 10+ year member]

"If you have experienced real stereo imaging..."
Nope, never. Thanks for the contribution.

"Imaging is a psychoacoustic effect."

Yeah, and the Haas effect is a part of that.

edit: I want to be clear that I am not talking about the creation of a phantom center channel just with mids in the rear and tweeters in the front. For the Haas effect to be relevant, there must also be a source in the front covering a bandwidth at least equal to that of the source in the rear. I am talking about the use of rear fill to enhance output with minimal degradation to the imaging generated along the horizontal axis from the sources in the front.

No, I had not read your post and none of mine weren't directed at you. Those who typically argue in favor of rear fill probably have NOT experienced real stereo imaging. I'll admit it, you sound like you have a lot more experience in "SQ" car audio than me and I learned a few things when I read your outline. But I've still never heard a convincing stereo image from multi-point sources, including "SQ" installs with supposedly proper time delay correction. I would love to read that AES paper if you have it. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[dwc 10+ year member]

...you have a small 6.5" driver up front. You play it down to the crossover point but obviously lack the output you're looking for. Good news! You may keep it in the current bandwidth, add large midbass drivers in the rear, keep the difference in front/rear arrival times below 30 ms, lowpass below the frequencies at which IID becomes prominent, EQ out any unevenness, and gain output with no effects on localization...

Good points and acknowledged. I am now on the same page as you, and may have misunderstood earlier when I took it to mean having the 6.5's themselves in back.

 

[oldschool4me 10+ year member]

I wouldn't necessarily use Crutchfield as a reference on much. I find their information to be aimed at perpetuating misunderstandings that bring in dollars.
The person who first turned me on to this concept was a guy who goes by the name of werewolf on DIYMA and ECA. I did a lot of reading from there and some listening. Thus my stance here.

yes i know but the info stated was general on the subject.

 

[pikers 10+ year member]

hmmmm interesting. not a fan of that idea at all.

Midbass is probably the hardest thing to do well. Good amplifiers will exhibit the ability to control a driver, without stressing it or causing too much midbass bloom. In fact, RF is known for exhibiting this control and always has been. The fact that this seems to be a revelation in the CA&E review is a little puzzling TBH.