Tweeter that I can cross hard at 2kz?

Since it's never been explicitly explained to me, don't hold what I say to be true until it's verified or corrected. So I'll explain my reasoning as best as I can.

-It's easily noticeable that there is a connection between the moving mass of a driver and the HZ range that it is designed to reproduce in many cases. This goes further to the connection between driver axis response, sensitivity, and linear displacement. I have not recognized a direct explainable connection between all 3 yet so I'll leave this out and go to a more specific example.

Music derives from tones. That's obvious. My idea of having multiple drivers comes almost completely from this. If you were to have 22,000 ideal speakers that are powered perfectly playing 1 tone each from 1 to 22k hz at the correct time at the correct volume magically from the same location (sound coming from 1 point), you would hypothetically have a near perfect reproduction of whatever it is you're playing at that location. Since this situation is impossible, it would be more realistic to divide all the frequencies into sections where the more the better and least is worse. Why is least worse? (This is where I may be totally wrong, if not already). //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/hide.gif.2d479cfd917eedfe201353b91522ceab.gif

Imagine a low frequency sine wave of some arbitrary time. If the speaker were to reproduce this, it's motion would be an up and down smooth motion, just as the graph of the sine wave shows. If you add another low frequency sine wave, the speakers motion will not be as smooth as before to play both waves. If you continue this process for all 22kz, some frequencies will undoubtedly be absent from the speaker trying to play all of the sine waves and smothering, if you will, those frequencies. Dividing the full range into sections would help stop this. And since cars have little room to offer in many cases, 4 is an acceptable division (especially for our situation).

Now take the moving mass into account. Picture a skinny guy on a bench press with two 5 lb plates on the bar pushing 3 repetitions per second. This can be imagined as a driver playing low frequencies with air resistance at the upward (or downward) piston speed (the strength of the guy on the bench can represent the BL of the driver). It is obvious that the air resistance increases as the piston speed increases (hand outside of the car window at 5 MPH compared to 70 MPH). So now imagine the skinny guy trying to push 10 repetitions per second with 45 lb plates on the bar. So now imagine the large mass of a large driver trying to reproduce a 15khz tone- the peak to peak motion will not be fully reached to keep up with the signal.

Not a great example I know... but it illustrates what I was going for.

This pretty much applies to the entire concept of crossing the tweeters very low; for the ability to accurately reproduce higher tones based on the low Mms, high sensitivity, and low linear displacement. keep in mind that there are obviously other contributions to this from the construction and parameters of each individual tweeter. Now this doesn't mean you always have to cross them low, as in your case of finding a midrange to reach high up there as accurately as a tweeter could.

Again, I may be wrong, but this is how I am able to explain it and am very willing to be corrected. I am sure that James Bang, JimJ, or someone else on here that seems to know this topic better than me will chime in for a better explanation.

 
then the idea would carry into sub frequencies as well ? coupla 18's and maybe coupla 12's in substage ?
The low hz range is so narrow as it is (should be), and motor strength takes care of what I assume you to believe that 18's can't take care of the upper 50hz.

Wrong. If the BL is adequate among other parameters, the difference will be inaudible.

 
Explain please. I don't see the point in having a 3-way where the midrange is only covering the bottom half of the vocal range.
The dash is a violent place to put a full range, there's a ton of nasty reflections. And it gets 10x worse if you use multiple drivers.

Having said that, it's the best location in the entire car, there's no doubt about it. And I think you're on the right track, using multiple midranges. It's a necessity, to get the power handling and the efficiency up. I am currently using three midranges per channel. So I'm on the same page as you.

If I can help tune this thing in any way, let me know.

Here's my build thread:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=148006

And here's what I'm rocking on my dash. Four midranges and two compression drivers.

sep11-6.jpg


 
Music derives from tones. That's obvious. My idea of having multiple drivers comes almost completely from this. If you were to have 22,000 ideal speakers that are powered perfectly playing 1 tone each from 1 to 22k hz at the correct time at the correct volume magically from the same location (sound coming from 1 point), you would hypothetically have a near perfect reproduction of whatever it is you're playing at that location. Since this situation is impossible, it would be more realistic to divide all the frequencies into sections where the more the better and least is worse. Why is least worse? (This is where I may be totally wrong, if not already). //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/hide.gif.2d479cfd917eedfe201353b91522ceab.gif
The biggest problem with the use of multiple drivers is their phase interaction. When two pistons are playing out of phase, you get comb filtering. Even worse, the comb filtering changes if you move even an inch, and it destroys your soundstage.

That's the bad news.

The good news is that our perception of the soundstage isn't particularly sensitive to frequency response below 1khz. (We ARE sensitive to path length distances, which is why many people are bothered by putting speakers in the door of their car.)

If you have some time to kill, fire up the stereo in your car. Now add a tweeter, one on each side.

The soundstage will collapse.

Now remove the extra tweeters, and add a midrange, located the same distance as your first set of mids. It doesn't even have to be near the primary set of mids, in fact it could be two feet below them.

You'll notice the soundstage is intact, but the system has a pleasant glow of ambience.

The reason that you can add mids easily is that the wavelengths are very long, so comb filtering isn't much of an issue below 1khz.

A 500hz sound wave is two and a half feet long.

 
The biggest problem with the use of multiple drivers is their phase interaction. When two pistons are playing out of phase, you get comb filtering. Even worse, the comb filtering changes if you move even an inch, and it destroys your soundstage.
That's the bad news.

The good news is that our perception of the soundstage isn't particularly sensitive to frequency response below 1khz. (We ARE sensitive to path length distances, which is why many people are bothered by putting speakers in the door of their car.)

If you have some time to kill, fire up the stereo in your car. Now add a tweeter, one on each side.

The soundstage will collapse.

Now remove the extra tweeters, and add a midrange, located the same distance as your first set of mids. It doesn't even have to be near the primary set of mids, in fact it could be two feet below them.

You'll notice the soundstage is intact, but the system has a pleasant glow of ambience.

The reason that you can add mids easily is that the wavelengths are very long, so comb filtering isn't much of an issue below 1khz.

A 500hz sound wave is two and a half feet long.
Got the auto TA in My car //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif Those wave guides are REALLY neat tho. Wish I had the computer programs and understanding to do that.

 
Thanks for the good read in the thread of yours that you linked to...interesting stuff there.

Got the auto TA in My car //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif Those wave guides are REALLY neat tho. Wish I had the computer programs and understanding to do that.
I wish I had an RTA so I could do a full sweep on each side so I can know exactly where I need to EQ.

Earthquake Screamers will take it all day //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif
I thought about those, but anything from earthquake just makes me second guess how it's really going to sound. The only people I see using them ar guys with a wall of subs and 10kw, so I doubt they're really interested in how smooth the tweeter is.

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/greedy.gif.5a53e6246569d7ab79867170f3b06629.gif:greedy://content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/greedy.gif.5a53e6246569d7ab79867170f3b06629.gif

 
I want to borrow your Tangband soft domes. They are the same size as my Ceramics, direct drop in fitment. I can let you play with the ceramics for the time being if you want //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 
I want to borrow your Tangband soft domes. They are the same size as my Ceramics, direct drop in fitment. I can let you play with the ceramics for the time being if you want //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif
I've got a NIB pair with your name on them. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

 
I've got a NIB pair with your name on them. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif
Looks we will have to make a date for this saturday at your place //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/tongue.gif.6130eb82179565f6db8d26d6001dcd24.gif

 
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