Tweeter alignment

[maylar 10+ year member]

The stock tweeter location in my car is the upper door panel and they're pretty much on axis. What I don't like is that I can localize certain music, like a cymbal tinkle, directly to the left tweeter since it's so much closer to my head than the right side. I can fix that with some high end coaxials but I really like the detail of the Morels and I'd hate to lose them. What can I do with the tweeters to make them less obvious?

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[disturbed471985 5,000+ posts]

Does ur HU have time alignment??

 

[wenn_du_weinst 10+ year member]

get a dash mat and move them to pillars

 

[zako 10+ year member]

Does ur HU have time alignment??

Time alignment for tweeter, specially in passive setup is a BAD idea. If you align your tweeters, then the woofers will not be time aligned any more unless they're right next to tweeters. It's FAR more important to align the woofers with each other than the tweeters. Time alignment makes difference only in midbass and midrange frequencies.

 

[zako 10+ year member]

The stock tweeter location in my car is the upper door panel and they're pretty much on axis. What I don't like is that I can localize certain music, like a cymbal tinkle, directly to the left tweeter since it's so much closer to my head than the right side. I can fix that with some high end coaxials but I really like the detail of the Morels and I'd hate to lose them. What can I do with the tweeters to make them less obvious?

Maybe it's just the way these tweeters are. The Morel Maximos have been measured to have much stronger response on axis compared to off axis. Moreover, on axis they tend to be louder than the mids. Also, some tweeters are just less transparent and less airy than others. Right now you can try this:

1. experiment with tweeter placement and aim. It seems like you could benefit from placing the tweeter that's closest to you slightly off axis

2. Play with right/left speaker balance.

 

[disturbed471985 5,000+ posts]

Time alignment for tweeter, specially in passive setup is a BAD idea. If you align your tweeters, then the woofers will not be time aligned any more unless they're right next to tweeters. It's FAR more important to align the woofers with each other than the tweeters. Time alignment makes difference only in midbass and midrange frequencies.

As far as TA only being good for mids I will disagree with u on that in my setup with TA not set you can noticeably tell the delay from the passenger side tweets to the driver side as well as the delay from the mids.. Soooo.

 

[whitedragon551 5,000+ posts]

I assume your running passive. If you are time alignment will help as it will effect both the mid and tweeter. Another thing you can try is switching polarity on the tweeter closest to you.

 

[zako 10+ year member]

As far as TA only being good for mids I will disagree with u on that in my setup with TA not set you can noticeably tell the delay from the passenger side tweets to the driver side as well as the delay from the mids.. Soooo.

Well, the effectiveness of time alignment for tweeters depends on how far they play down into mid range. For the highs, 5KHz and up, time alignment supposedly will not have effect as far as localization of sound is concerned. Cymbals live in the frequencies way above that. In fact, time differences are most important in the region below 2KHz. Perhaps the frequency numbers I present here are not 100% correct, so I hope someone with more knowledge will chime in. If time alignment is used to align tweeters, as opposed the woofers, with each other then there will be a bigger problem, with human voices coming from the woofer closest to you instead of the center of the sound stage. In the end, since a lot of tweeters play down into mid range frequencies, there is no way to get coherent imaging through time alignment in passive speaker setups unless tweeter and woofer are mounted next to each other. Going active is the best way. This is why my next speakers will be HAT Imagine speakers. All HAT speakers are designed so that woofer plays into >5KHz region before the tweeters take over, so it should be safe to time align the woofers without tweeters screwing up imaging. In higher frequencies, what matters most for localization of sound is the intensity differences, not time differences. So, if your highs are not centered, then this can be fixed by changing the volume on the tweeters. Some component speakers have crossovers that allow changing tweeter volume in 2 to 3dB increments and I think this could have worked for the OP. Unfortunately, Morel Maximos do not have the jumpers for changing tweeters intensity. This is why I recommended to the op simply to play with the balance control on the head unit.

 

[disturbed471985 5,000+ posts]

My tweets are crossed at 3.1k so maybe thats why I can tell the difference.

 

[whitedragon551 5,000+ posts]

Well, the effectiveness of time alignment for tweeters depends on how far they play down into mid range. For the highs, 5KHz and up, time alignment supposedly will not have effect as far as localization of sound is concerned. Cymbals live in the frequencies way above that. In fact, time differences are most important in the region below 2KHz. Perhaps the frequency numbers I present here are not 100% correct, so I hope someone with more knowledge will chime in. If time alignment is used to align tweeters, as opposed the woofers, with each other then there will be a bigger problem, with human voices coming from the woofer closest to you instead of the center of the sound stage. In the end, since a lot of tweeters play down into mid range frequencies, there is no way to get coherent imaging through time alignment in passive speaker setups unless tweeter and woofer are mounted next to each other. Going active is the best way. This is why my next speakers will be HAT Imagine speakers. All HAT speakers are designed so that woofer plays into >5KHz region before the tweeters take over, so it should be safe to time align the woofers without tweeters screwing up imaging. In higher frequencies, what matters most for localization of sound is the intensity differences, not time differences. So, if your highs are not centered, then this can be fixed by changing the volume on the tweeters. Some component speakers have crossovers that allow changing tweeter volume in 2 to 3dB increments and I think this could have worked for the OP. Unfortunately, Morel Maximos do not have the jumpers for changing tweeters intensity. This is why I recommended to the op simply to play with the balance control on the head unit.

Time Alignment refers to delaying speakers so they all play the same music at the same time. Frequency has nothing to do with the physical time delay placed on each speaker.

 

[zako 10+ year member]

Time Alignment refers to delaying speakers so they all play the same music at the same time. Frequency has nothing to do with the physical time delay placed on each speaker.

I think you have not read my argument above. The argument is that TA is not that important for speakers that play into high frequencies. Human ear cannot detect that. Frequency has LOT to do in the car when you do time alignment. Unless you run active front stage or coaxial speakers, there is NO WAY to time align ALL FOUR speakers in a 2-way front stage. So you have to decide, do you align the right and left tweeters with each other or do you align the right and left woofers with each other? Which one do you prefer to do? My argument is that time alignment is most useful in the frequencies played by the mid woofers, so midwoofers should be time aligned with each other, not tweeters! Of course it would help a lot if your woofers are able to play into upper midrange before the tweeters kick in to remove any ambiguity. (this runs contrary to a lot of people wanting to play their tweeters as low as possible. when you do this, imaging is screwed unless tweeter and woofer are mounted next to each other) Aligning the tweeters with each other is a waste in passive setup because time differences in high frequencies are not used by human brain to localize sound, while time alignment of woofers will be screwed up. If you want more detailed account, head to Hybrid Audio web site and read the manual of Hybrid Audio Imagines speakers, it's explained there.

 

[whitedragon551 5,000+ posts]

I think you have not read my argument above. The argument is that TA is not that important for speakers that play into high frequencies. Human ear cannot detect that. Frequency has LOT to do in the car when you do time alignment. Unless you run active front stage or coaxial speakers, there is NO WAY to time align ALL FOUR speakers in a 2-way front stage. So you have to decide, do you align the right and left tweeters with each other or do you align the right and left woofers with each other? Which one do you prefer to do? My argument is that time alignment is most useful in the frequencies played by the mid woofers, so midwoofers should be time aligned with each other, not tweeters! Of course it would help a lot if your woofers are able to play into upper midrange before the tweeters kick in to remove any ambiguity. (this runs contrary to a lot of people wanting to play their tweeters as low as possible. when you do this, imaging is screwed unless tweeter and woofer are mounted next to each other) Aligning the tweeters with each other is a waste in passive setup because time differences in high frequencies are not used by human brain to localize sound, while time alignment of woofers will be screwed up. If you want more detailed account, head to Hybrid Audio web site and read the manual of Hybrid Audio Imagines speakers, it's explained there.

I did read your argument and I did read the HAT Imagine manual. There is nothing in that manual that talks about time alignment. It talks about PLD, IID, and ITD.

Time alignment is delaying a specific speaker from playing before another. You can time delay all 4 speakers in a 2 way front stage active or passive, but you dont need to. You leave the closest set alone and adjust the others. Frequency is not important when adjusting time alignment. All frequencies of sound travel at the same speed provided the room properties are the same.

 

[wenn_du_weinst 10+ year member]

time alignment is important for ALL speakers in the car. not one single speaker will sound good with the sound arriving late to your ear

 

[dontbeaprix 10+ year member]

The morels are made to be mounted off axis, I mounted mine around 6 inches from the mid wich ended up being around knee hight. You cannot tell where it is coming from and the imaging in high. You don't neccecarally need tweeters mounted high to bring your sound stage up anyways especially with a tweeter designed to be mounted off axis . I can link you a video that shows where mine are mounted and the sound great where they are.

 

[maylar 10+ year member]

Thanks very much for the advice and discussion. I would like the listening experience to be the same for both driver and passenger, so balance adjustments etc are IMO a last resort. Though I do notice that if I sit in the middle of the front seat it sounds much better, but I can still localize the tweeters. I have to get into the doors again anyway so I'm gonna play around with tweeter aiming and see how that goes.

Thanks agin for the suggestions.