Truth?

Almost unbelievable .... in a good way

we are on page 5 and there has certainly been some differences of opinion, but notice that it has mostly been pointing out of facts and figures with a little personal experience thrown in .... with no flaming and name calling. This thread has been very informational and informative, hopefully the trend will continue.

 
Almost unbelievable .... in a good way
we are on page 5 and there has certainly been some differences of opinion, but notice that it has mostly been pointing out of facts and figures with a little personal experience thrown in .... with no flaming and name calling. This thread has been very informational and informative, hopefully the trend will continue.
Don't jinx us!! //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

 
well, there are definitely 2 camps here. The vast majority in here are only concerned with playing freq's below like 70 Hz at VERY loud levels. The minority, including myself, are more concerned with accurate sounds and consider the sub freq's as just a small part of the overall musical spectrum.

To answer a few other posts .... I never said removing the battery while the car was running was a good idea, just that it was possible. Yes the battery does help filter the alternators power - a VERY good reason to have a good battery if you have a lot of power. I personally need a good and powerful battery because I compete in SQ and all of the judging is done with the engine off, with the exception of listening for engine noise.

As a side note, why is that most of the amps still have in the instruction manual that comes with it (not that any of you read it //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif ) that the ground wire should be kept as short as possible, usually it says less than 12". Perhaps these engineers need some enlightening.

 
As a side note, why is that most of the amps still have in the instruction manual that comes with it (not that any of you read it //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif ) that the ground wire should be kept as short as possible, usually it says less than 12". Perhaps these engineers need some enlightening.

Ooooh, another solid point from the SQ team.

Personally I am going to stick with putting in a very short chassis ground, unless one day I decide to build an SPL competition machine. I have had very good luck with doing things this way. However, I have seen a couple great ideas roll out of this thread. If I ever do run into a noise issue, or build a competition rig, I will definately run a wire from the battery - to the back, and ground that to the chassis, as well as run the amp's ground off of it.

 
As a side note, why is that most of the amps still have in the instruction manual that comes with it (not that any of you read it //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif ) that the ground wire should be kept as short as possible, usually it says less than 12". Perhaps these engineers need some enlightening.
Why? Because most of the amps solid do not require the power needed for a dedicated run. When using 8, 4, 2, etc... the body is a larger conductor than said wires and will offer less resistance.

Once you get to a certain point, which is highly debated in itself, you should switch to dedicated runs because a large copper conductor will offer less resistance than the steel body.

 
As a side note, why is that most of the amps still have in the instruction manual that comes with it (not that any of you read it //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif ) that the ground wire should be kept as short as possible, usually it says less than 12". Perhaps these engineers need some enlightening.
You think that engineers write the manual? Seriously?

I don't do SPL. I don't compete in SQ mostly cause I just don't have the time, but my focus is SQ. The long and the short...

The alt cannot provide current for large transients. It simply cannot react fast enough especially with newer cars where the voltage regulator is part of the ECU. My current car takes seconds to ramp up alt output in response to a demand which is sad because the factory alt is a 165A model. The battery provides the excess current until the alt can catch up. This is just as true with high current alts as with factory ones.

I've never seen an alt wire go to the fuse box. Every car I've worked on went to the battery and from there to the distro panel.

The battery is only a load when it is discharged. As long as the alt can keep up with the average load of the car and system, adding an extra battery can and will help more with headlight dimming and transient voltage drops than a high output alt will. When the demand exceeds the output of the alt, the battery picks up the slack and then when the demand drops or the regulator ups the alt's output, the alt recharges the battery. Only when the average total current draw exceeds the capacity of the alt does the alt need to be upgraded.

Grounding to the battery is a sound practice both for the SPL and SQ competitor. For the SPL guy it gives you the possibility of the lowest resistance path for power. For the SQ guy it give you a known good ground and coupled with making a proper ground for source units and processors makes it much less likely that you'll pick up noise.

The whole shortest possible ground thing makes sense for a small amp where you're using small diameter power and ground wire. The chassis will be a lower resistance than that small wire back to the battery. I use 4ga for 50w amps though. I am a firm believer in good enough isn't good enough. When you think about it though, the ground is going back to the battery anyway, whether through the chassis or through a dedicated wire. I personally would much rather know exactly what my ground path is and what is sharing part or all of that path with my amps and processors. The battery neg post is the ground reference with the car on or off. The engine block (connected to the case of the alt which is its negative terminal) should be properly connected to the battery neg post and the alt pos to the battery pos. The result is a parallel connection that should result in the difference in potential between the battery and the alt being effectively zero. That means that for all intents and purposes, the battery neg post is reference ground.

The chassis is not a uniform conductor. Not by far. The forming and welding processes change the uniformity of the steel and the result is a myriad of different decent conductive pathways where the majority of the current flows interspersed with a ton of poor conductive areas. What this means to you is that the whole body of the car may be much larger than your wire, but the vast majorty of the car is not conducting your current. Compound that with the fact that copper is more than 10x more conductive than steel and it should become pretty obvious what is the more certain route.

 
I've never seen an alt wire go to the fuse box. Every car I've worked on went to the battery and from there to the distro panel.
My alternator has wires going directly to the wiring harness/fuseblock.

The only stock wires on my battery are the one to the starter and one to the alternator (which is connected to a ring terminal that bolts onto the alternator post). Then again, my truck is 18 years old and I'm sure things are different by now. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 
My alternator has wires going directly to the wiring harness/fuseblock.
The only stock wires on my battery are the one to the starter and one to the alternator (which is connected to a ring terminal that bolts onto the alternator post). Then again, my truck is 18 years old and I'm sure things are different by now. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif
The wires going to the fuse block are the same size as the one gong to the battery? Even so the battery is still wired in parallel and still doing its job of ripple filtering, and you still have a wire going directly from the alt to the battery.

 
Ok, time for a new wrinkle. You gus do realiaze that amps don't actually draw "DC" from the electrical system. What it's really drawing is pulsed DC at like 50-60 KHz, maybe we should be looking at the impedance of a copper or CCA wire vs the car's chassis.

 
The wires going to the fuse block are the same size as the one gong to the battery?
On the 2 cars I am most familiar with, '88 CRX and 01 Accord, There is no wire directly connecting the battery to the aternator per se from the factory. The alt wire goes to the fuse block, it's put into the fuses to power the car's accessories - and also goes thru a fusible link then out to the battey. I suppose that would be the same as running the alt straight to the battery, then running a wire to the fuse block.

 
The wires going to the fuse block are the same size as the one gong to the battery? Even so the battery is still wired in parallel and still doing its job of ripple filtering, and you still have a wire going directly from the alt to the battery.
The wires are roughly the same size.

 
Ok, time for a new wrinkle. You gus do realiaze that amps don't actually draw "DC" from the electrical system. What it's really drawing is pulsed DC at like 50-60 KHz, maybe we should be looking at the impedance of a copper or CCA wire vs the car's chassis.
The input to the amp is DC. The power supply pulses it. The caps in the amp's power supply keep the current on the power line or ground from pulsing. The power supply caps are line power filters that work in both directions.

 
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