Subwoofer headaches

[Kryptokid 10+ year member]

Ok so here is my problem. I just got a bunch of new gear, and I am shopping for a new pair of subs. For the whole story I have another thread going

http://www.caraudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=205797

Anyways I want to use a lot of space, so I am going to be building small fiberglass enclosures, I will probably have between .5-.8 cubes per sub sealed. I am either going to use one or two (if needed) PDX 1.1000 amps. I am really looking for a subwoofer that can actually produce a balanced response in the higher ranges of bass (60hz and above) as well as hit a fairly deep punchy bassline, but maintain a good sensitivity. Due to the bass range requirements I am pretty much looking at 10's. Right now a couple brands I am looking at:

-RE Audio SE's

-The Elemental Designs 11Ov.2's

-Ascendant Audio Arsenal's

I am also trying to decide if I am going to get enough bass volume (love clarity but I am still very much a bass head) from two subs run at 500W each? I don't have any experience with using only two 10's in an SUV and I am kind of worried that they won't have enough volume to fill the entire cab. Perhaps I should try for a better sound with 4 subs @ 500W each or maybe two higher output @ 1000W a piece. Problem is then I require a larger enclosure. Any other ideas of sub brands or input on volume output in a 4Runner?

-Me-

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[billabongcr 5,000+ posts]

why not instead of little separate boxes, one big box. then you could utilize bigger subs. not really bigger, but more power handling. if you want something thatll perform well in tight spaces..might look into DD..$$$$

 

[BOOKER 10+ year member]

10w6v2s //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/yumyum.gif.0556df42231b304b9c995aefd13928a8.gif

 

[snoopdan 5,000+ posts]

You could try an isovent style enclosure, utilizing two drivers in conjunction with each other (and wired out of phase from one another) to provide an acoustical and mechanical coupling effect which will effectively divide the enclosure size requiorements by half.

reference : http://mobile.jlaudio.com/support_pages.php?page_id=152

 

[djman37 5,000+ posts]

You could try an isovent style enclosure, utilizing two drivers in conjunction with each other (and wired out of phase from one another) to provide an acoustical and mechanical coupling effect which will effectively divide the enclosure size requiorements by half.

reference : http://mobile.jlaudio.com/support_pages.php?page_id=152

snoop, how does the clamshell isobaric hold up with the 100% dustcaps like the SE's where ISO loading doesn't keep the cone stiff?

The trade off in smaller enclosure size is output. You power 2 subs, but only get the acoustical output of 1. It can make lesser subs sound a whole lot better too.

 

[snoopdan 5,000+ posts]

snoop, how does the clamshell isobaric hold up with the 100% dustcaps like the SE's where ISO loading doesn't keep the cone stiff?The trade off in smaller enclosure size is output. You power 2 subs, but only get the acoustical output of 1. It can make lesser subs sound a whole lot better too.

you're kinda right about the two drivers sounding as one with Iso setup, but there IS additional output as a whole with the two - but more like 1.5 subs instead of just one. As far as the solid dust caps you're refering to, as long as the seal is very good between the two subs (in whichever manner you load them in the enclosure) the semi preloaded atmostpheric pressure of the space between them should keep it pressurized and stable...(or at least enough for it not to matter)...thats another benefit of the clamshell arrangement - cancellation of some mechanical noise....but the most importnant thing is to keep the seals perfect, which isnt always real world attainable.

This is one of those kinda boxes that you'd want if you're doing SQ and want big woofers but dont have much space....kind of a weird expectation in the first place which of course requires a werid box //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

 

[Gods_Prototype 10+ year member]

Why do you want to use 10's, why not a 12" or two 12's or even one 15".

I have an Explorer and one 12" sealed pounds pretty good, I only have like 1.5 cubic feet box with Eclipse Titanium getting maybe 800watts RMS from my amp. Unless you want 10's for looks or personal preference is up to you though, I recommend bigger woofers if you can fit them in there which you can with a SUV. Titaniums are known for getting loud and low in small boxes ported or sealed but I'm pretty sure it will shine in its ported box when I'm done building it. They aren't cheap though but this isn't a cheap hobby.

 

[Kryptokid 10+ year member]

Ok first off thanks for all the replies, the input is appreciated.

billabongcr - I am not really looking into one single box because I plan on making some fiberglass fenderwells (similar to the JL this JL stealth box just larger) http://mobile.jlaudio.com/products_stealthbox_detail.php?fit_id=1421 so I do not have to sacrifice any usable space in my rig. I do a lot of camping and snowboarding trips as well as own a dog, so that space is very inportant to me.

BOOKER - 10w6v2s I have used those subs before and enjoyed them, but I do not think they perform as well as some of the newer manufactorers on the market. I am always trying to keep my ear to the ground for new brands and or new models of audio equipment since this hobby is ever evolving and nothing can stay at the top forever.

snoopdan - I do not feel I will need to go as far as isobarics being that most of the subs I have listed are able to perform to spec with the amount of space I have to offer and should produce plenty of quality sound for my goals.

Ok now correct me if I am wrong, but I am going to be meeting the space requirements needed for one of these subwoofers sealed. If I was to add a second clamshelled, wouldn't that not only help equalize the sub and produce more clarity, but also increase the output due to doubling the wattage (similar to the difference between a 500W RMS 10 and a 1000W RMS 10 of similar construction)? Obviously it will not produce the same output as two subs in a standard sealed box with double the watts, but wouldn't the extra subs increase the output a noticable amount? I would think that if I went from two sealed subs and added two additional clamshelled iso subs and doubled the watts being provided, it would sound about the same as maybe three subs in a standard sealed box, just the iso would sound much cleaner....Or....would that just be the equivalant to me installing the single sub in too large of an enclosure and now be outside of the range of recomended sealed enclosure for the sub/subs and therefor distrupt the proper sound?

I guess I could use four subs in this configuration at a later date if I decide that two does not produce enough SPL and I feel I want more output (the basshead in me comes out). I am thinking that I can always build the system with the two subs in standard sealed boxes then add spacers and the second two subs inverted if I decide I want to pusue more bass later. At a minimum how much spacing do you feel is needed in the sealed chamber between the two woofers? Obviously they shouldn't be touching, but is there such thing as too close?

Gods_Prototype - I am looking at 10's as to be able to produce a box with enough air space needed for good quality sound. I do have a good amount of experience with both 10's and 12's in many different applications. In my own personal experience I have found 10's to be able to more cleanly produce the upper ranges (60-120ish Htz) more effectively and 12's to produce the lower ranges (60-30ish Htz) fuller. I know this will probably start a flame abount box building and if so, then so be it. I am not saying that a sub cannot produce a set range, just saying that certain subs are more comfortable in a certain range and that is reflected in the sound quality they will produce.

As for brands I am not too concerned with the pricetag (within reason), more with the way they will perform. Does anyone have personal experience with two or more of the models listed who would be willing to compare them? Any input on anything being discussed would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance

-Me-

 

[BOOKER 10+ year member]

Ok, I got your point, and you are right!

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/thumbsup.gif.3287b36ca96645a13a43aff531f37f02.gif

 

[snoopdan 5,000+ posts]

snoopdan - I do not feel I will need to go as far as isobarics being that most of the subs I have listed are able to perform to spec with the amount of space I have to offer and should produce plenty of quality sound for my goals.

Ok now correct me if I am wrong, but I am going to be meeting the space requirements needed for one of these subwoofers sealed. If I was to add a second clamshelled, wouldn't that not only help equalize the sub and produce more clarity, but also increase the output due to doubling the wattage (similar to the difference between a 500W RMS 10 and a 1000W RMS 10 of similar construction)? Obviously it will not produce the same output as two subs in a standard sealed box with double the watts, but wouldn't the extra subs increase the output a noticable amount? I would think that if I went from two sealed subs and added two additional clamshelled iso subs and doubled the watts being provided, it would sound about the same as maybe three subs in a standard sealed box, just the iso would sound much cleaner....Or....would that just be the equivalant to me installing the single sub in too large of an enclosure and now be outside of the range of recomended sealed enclosure for the sub/subs and therefor distrupt the proper sound?

I guess I could use four subs in this configuration at a later date if I decide that two does not produce enough SPL and I feel I want more output (the basshead in me comes out). I am thinking that I can always build the system with the two subs in standard sealed boxes then add spacers and the second two subs inverted if I decide I want to pusue more bass later. At a minimum how much spacing do you feel is needed in the sealed chamber between the two woofers? Obviously they shouldn't be touching, but is there such thing as too close?

sorry for not replying promtply, I get pulled in all sorts of directions when I get online //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/blush.gif.99bc659ee2012b7d826165e26fb5eebe.gif

As far as your question, there is not a perfect linear transition between the compairson of the 1 sub vs. 2 sub ouput scenerio when you observe the use of isobaric loading. While I think you understand that pretty well, the question you had on the amount of physical wattage that both are consuming is also not linear in the output you're getting - the clear trade off is improved clarity (also refered to as less coloration) and of course the benefit of a smaller inclosure than the single sub originally required. Isobaric configuration with 4 drivers in my opinion is a total luxery from an SQ standpoint, but not going to get you as loud as 4 drivers in seperate enclosures. You're paying for that clarity and lack of needing as much space. On your question about the spacing between the woofers, it really shouldnt matter - the airspace between the woofer cones is really not as critical as you might think - just imagine both woofers in conjunction with each other mimicing a piston scenerio, with the supporting outer enclosure required for BOTH of the subs as the unloading mechanism of the subs. Ideally, there should be a constant pressure / atmosphere between the speakers when faced in the "clamshell" arrangement....sure there is SOME compression between the drivers but not enough to matter or effect the desired anti-coloration methodology to begin with.

 

[Relax 10+ year member]

How can 2 subs clamshell produce more output then 1 sub? Even if each sub in the pair recieve the same power.

The pair moves the same amount of air as one. Sounds like the same spl to me.

 

[Kryptokid 10+ year member]

the clear trade off is improved clarity (also refered to as less coloration) and of course the benefit of a smaller inclosure than the single sub originally required. Isobaric configuration with 4 drivers in my opinion is a total luxery from an SQ standpoint, but not going to get you as loud as 4 drivers in seperate enclosures. You're paying for that clarity and lack of needing as much space.

Thank you very much for the reply, you seem to be one of the many wealths of knowledge on this forum who are always around to help. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/toast.gif.bc0657bf54b9ee653b6438524461341e.gif

So I guess my next question would be then.... If I have the proper space needed for two of these subs, which I will with no problem, then would adding another two subs clamshelled actually make the boxs "isobarically too large" for the subwoofers?

 

[snoopdan 5,000+ posts]

Thank you very much for the reply, you seem to be one of the many wealths of knowledge on this forum who are always around to help. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/toast.gif.bc0657bf54b9ee653b6438524461341e.gif
So I guess my next question would be then.... If I have the proper space needed for two of these subs, which I will with no problem, then would adding another two subs clamshelled actually make the boxs "isobarically too large" for the subwoofers?

Yes the subs in a clamshell orientation witll require only 1/2 of the space of one sub, so the fact that you have a normal enclosure size for the one would excede size requirments - however - this may not be a big factor depending on the method you chose to port the enclosure.