Subs with tall roll surrounds/ recone kits

did you know that you calculate half ur surrond as cone area anyway. high roll less linear no doubt. i have subs with both.
Indeed, I did. With that in mind, let's take two well known drivers and run the numbers. Both drivers have the exact same excursion capabilities at just over 3" which makes them perfect candidates for this comparison. I own both and have verified it many times. The surround on both drivers begins to deform at about the same point, about 2.75"

A 15" REVO has an effective Sd of 153.86 square inches.

A 15" Eclipse Ti has an effective Sd of 132.67 square inches.

My figure of 20% percent was a quick estimate and may have been on the high side but the actual difference is 13.7%. That's including half of the surround as effective surface area.

That's not a percentage I would consider negligible. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 
Indeed, I did. With that in mind, let's take two well known drivers and run the numbers. Both drivers have the exact same excursion capabilities at just over 3" which makes them perfect candidates for this comparison. I own both and have verified it many times. The surround on both drivers begins to deform at about the same point, about 2.75"

A 15" REVO has an effective Sd of 153.86 square inches.

A 15" Eclipse Ti has an effective Sd of 132.67 square inches.

My figure of 20% percent was a quick estimate and may have been on the high side but the actual difference is 13.7%. That's including half of the surround as effective surface area.

That's not a percentage I would consider negligible. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

Based on theory and calculation, it definitely looks pretty supporting. All we need now is someone to to take a single driver and meter it with same coil, motor, power, etc with the only variable being the surrounds and see if the extra cone area does anything //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 
Based on theory and calculation, it definitely looks pretty supporting. All we need now is someone to to take a single driver and meter it with same coil, motor, power, etc with the only variable being the surrounds and see if the extra cone area does anything //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif
Yeah, would be interesting. Unfortunately, these drivers aren't comparable in that regard. They have entirely different motor systems, the REVO being TC9 based with an 8 layer, 64mm WW, FW, aluminum coil and the Ti, a 3HP with a 4 layer, 58mm WW, RW, aluminum coil.

 
ur also using a sub with the biggest surrond in the biz at 3" wide. there was no need for a surrond that wide.

there is even pressure applied with the wide surrond. the tall surrond it it not even pressure to move the surrond.

the tall surrond allows coil rock no questions there. put a tall surrond on a mt or like motor and watch it fail...

 
ur also using a sub with the biggest surrond in the biz at 3" wide. there was no need for a surrond that wide.
there is even pressure applied with the wide surrond. the tall surrond it it not even pressure to move the surrond.

the tall surrond allows coil rock no questions there. put a tall surrond on a mt or like motor and watch it fail...
I'm going to disagree with you there.

 
ur also using a sub with the biggest surrond in the biz at 3" wide. there was no need for a surrond that wide.
there is even pressure applied with the wide surrond. the tall surrond it it not even pressure to move the surrond.

the tall surrond allows coil rock no questions there. put a tall surrond on a mt or like motor and watch it fail...
No, I chose that driver specifically because it shares the same spider setup as a REVO, dual 10", which allows for 3"+ of mechanical travel. Any smaller of a half roll surround on the Ti and it won't see the same mechanical travel as the REVO. That's as close a comparison as you can ask for pertaining to topic of half roll vs high roll and resulting cone area with the exact same stroke.

Not a single one of my high roll drivers has coil rock at close to 3.5" of excursion. A few of which have a single 10" spider.

DSC02977.jpg


 
terra, coil rock on a tight gapped sub is looking for disaster. the high excursion tc sounds subs have a big gap on them so a lil coil rock is not a big deal.

those pix look sick!!!

 
Nice pics //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

You would not see the rocking motion that way though. Get ahold of a strobe light and in a dark room, tune its speed to where the cone becomes close to stationary. If there are anomalies, you will see it then.

 
My understanding (and experience) is that high roll surrounds are very linear within their intended range but do not provide a linear compliance profile once they reach a certain point of travel. That is, the restoration force being applied for the inward stroke differs from the force being applied for the outward stroke, after the non-linear range is exceeded. This is the non-linear behavior most are describing.
It is a fact that every single surround no matter what size, shape, or material, will deform and buckle when reaching the extremes of travel. I can make my half roll surrounds do it just as easily as my high roll surrounds. The difference is that it takes far longer for a high roll surround to do this and it saves the cone/surround joint from being stressed as much as a half roll surround would sustain, for the same amount of travel. The high roll surround also allows for a bit more maximum travel but, as it's been mentioned, this would be less linear and would most likely be for the sake of extreme output or extension. I like to think of it as a safety run-out, a bit of mechanical headroom to allow for huge dynamic swings or even a mistake with the volume knob. Factor in that a high roll surround allows for about 20% more cone area compared to a half roll surround that would allow for the same excursion capabilities and it might make sense to choose the high roll surround even if it's non-linear at the extremes. Basically, it can mean the difference between breaking your driver or listening to it again after an event that led to maximum excursion for whatever length of time.

It's also worth mentioning that a rubber surround will offer better long-term reliability than a foam surround (high roll or half roll) where ripping apart at the cone/surround joint is concerned. The cone might tear away from the surround but the rubber surround itself is not likely to tear like a foam one will as was pictured by woofercooker.
Great post.

Sell me your avatar. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/drool.gif.b5e863e893038027711d4402f340dad0.gif

 
Thanks regarding the pictures.

Admittedly, I wasn't factoring in a scenario for a tighter than usual gap, but I believe two spiders spaced far enough apart would alleviate any concern of coil rocking that might otherwise occur with a single spider setup used in conjunction with a high roll surround. The use of a high roll surround for a tight gap system simply shouldn't be excluded altogether. While the gap is large for most TC motors, so is the coil and the run-out is not that great. I have a better photo to illustrate this point but this one will have to do for now. You can just see the top of the windings and how close they are to the neighboring aluminum ring which has the exact same ID as the top plate. It's about 1.5mm of clearance which is not a lot considering the travel these drivers are capable of. It's not a tight clearance by high efficiency motor standards though.

Edit: Added another pic for better detail of coil clearance.

1.jpg


DSC04221.jpg


 
Nice pics //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif
You would not see the rocking motion that way though. Get ahold of a strobe light and in a dark room, tune its speed to where the cone becomes close to stationary. If there are anomalies, you will see it then.
Thanks.

Yeah, I need to be better about the way I articulate things. I shouldn't say that there isn't any coil rock at all, rather there's not enough for the coil to come in contact with either the top plate or the T-yoke when approaching the extremes.

I hope that will please anyone who may have thought I was making an absolute statement.

A laser pointer serves very well to show any lateral deviation and yes, under very demanding excursion you can just appreciate that there is some tolerance for the coil to move about within it's stroke. But again, it's not coil rock that's at the heart of the debate, it's compliance versus X. The force applied by the surround is said to be non-linear but no one mentions at what distance of travel this holds true. Someplace I have a graph which depicts the Cms plot for a high roll surround in relation to up and down travel and the line is virtually straight. Whether or not that's marketing magic at it's finest, I don't know. They say it was designed using FEA so how bad could it really be?

 
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