Sound quality

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Point taken.
Lets look at the definition of quality shal we:

qual·i·ty

Pronunciation: 'kwäl-&t-E

Function: noun

Inflected Form: plural -ties

: a special or distinguishing attribute:

So what you're saying is that what distinguishes one sound from another is subjective, relative, and not absolute??
Insteresting point. However isn't the point of SQ to not be distinguishable from the real thing? Anyway, let's take a look at some pictures. In this picture, what would you say distinguishes the 2 monters in the hallway. Facial expression, size, color? After all, we can obviously see differences in these 2 monsters, yet try to quantitatively measure it.... (get a ruler handy)

http://www.coolopticalillusions.com/optical_illusions_pictures_3/images/runningmonster.gif

 
Insteresting point. However isn't the point of SQ to not be distinguishable from the real thing? Anyway, let's take a look at some pictures. In this picture, what would you say distinguishes the 2 monters in the hallway. Facial expression, size, color? After all, we can obviously see differences in these 2 monsters, yet try to quantitatively measure it.... (get a ruler handy)
http://www.coolopticalillusions.com/optical_illusions_pictures_3/images/runningmonster.gif
Wait a sec....I thought we were talking about quality here, not quantity???

I'm scared of monsters //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/fyi.gif.9f1f679348da7204ce960cfc74bca8e0.gif//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

 
My ears are very sensitive, and I can pick up on audio details that would otherwise be inaudible to everyone else. Knowing that, I am going to inform you now that I cannot tell the difference between a 64kbps ATRAC3plus file and an actual store-bought CD with the same song. There is more to the sound quality than the level of compression or the type of compression. The device or program used to encode the file is a major factor, as is the hardware (headphones, speakers, etc.), and the type of connection used (analog speaker cables or digital fiber optic cables). That being said, the numbers game does come into play here. If the head unit or the speakers do not reproduce the entire human audible range (10Hz to 30kHz @ a maximum 92dB sensitivity), then they cannot accurately reproduce the quality of the original source. And a little bit of advice on the human audible range: As humans get older, the frequency range at which they can hear gets smaller and the sensitivity of the ear drops.
The human hearing range is NOTHING near 30k. Assuming your not 9 years old you'll be fortunate to hear past 15k with any reasonable volume level. Even very young girls have problems beyond 22, and they are lucky. Furthermore that, 10hz is also very subsonic. Like I already said, if you above 40k you are at least sampling up to the limit of human hearing however dithering and added noises in the D/A stage still needs to be taken into account. This is where MP3's tend to fall short, they pull out some of the smaller details when low level noise is removed. Anyway, when you said at a maximum of 92db's what were you referring to?

 
Wait a sec....I thought we were talking about quality here, not quantity???
I'm scared of monsters //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/fyi.gif.9f1f679348da7204ce960cfc74bca8e0.gif//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif
yes, but I guess the question becomes, can we quanitify quality? After all an amps ability to reproduce a signal is very well described mathmatically. I mean those 2 monsters look very different, despite they themselves giving the same imprint on our retina, the only physical component of vision is light. Just the same way sound is nothing more than ossicallating air waves. At what point does the human minds bias overcome any phsyical constraint. 2 systems could quite eaisly measure the exact same and yet sound very different to judges, just because of the gear involed, who's car it was, what mood he was in etc. The human experience is a hard thing to define, and as such, soudn quality becomes subjective. What truly seperates things however, isn't. In that way I can agree and disagree. Sure in it's purest form SQ is a 100% reproduction of a signal, but even that won't guarntee that it sounds the same to a human ear..... Learning to work around that is one of the biggest keys in SQ competitions.

 
Tempest, the 92dB I was referring to is the sensitivity of the human ear, similar to the #dB of sensitivity on speakers. It is basically how many details the human ear can pick out of the audible sounds. The higher the sensitivity, the sharper the detail and the easier it is to identify the source of the audio cue. Is it a puff of air or a bullet whizzing by your ear? That's what I mean by sensitivity in the human ear. In the case of music, is it a tap on a snare drum or someone clapping their hands? Sensitivity allows you to tell the two apart. Sensitivity...The name says it all...How sensitive your ears are to the surrounding environment...Basically, how easily you can hear noises and identify what those noises are. Its not just the level of detail, though...its also how well you can detect a sound through external interference, such as a whistle being blown by a police officer at a busy intersection, or the whispers in a quiet room.

 
To truly pick up all the information a human being can hear, you'd need to sample at 40k. To exaclty reproduce any analog waveform you need to digitally sample it at 2x the highest frequency. Which in the case of human hearing, caps right at 20k. Any higher is basically a waste of time.
It isn't an exact replication, but it is/was the accepted standard resolution that is "close enough" to the original.

A lot of analog fanatics would disagree with you. Vinyl, for example, has an extremely high frequency response and many consider it the preferred media.

Also, aren't most songs mastered at 96 or 192khz nowadays? I am no expert. Can someone explain why they master at such high resolution?

 
Anyway to get into SQ in terms of competition and what many audiophiles consider SQ. Looking at specs is worthless. Specs can't account for a good install, which is 99% of the battle. Sure a speaker can play down to 10hz in a acheotic chamber, but what about when your door panel has massive resonance masking low level detail and creating cancellation from the back wave escaping? What about the fact that those measurements were taken on axis, by the time you get out to 30+degree's off axis, goodbye bass response.

 
Also, aren't most songs mastered at 96 or 192khz nowadays? I am no expert. Can someone explain why they master at such high resolution?
Most songs are mastered at 24-bit/96kHz sampling rates, which is an all-digital signal, then that signal is fed through a Digital-to-analog converter prior to being burned onto a CD. Analog signals are 16-bit/48kHz or 16-bit/44.1kHz. CD Quality is 16-bit/48kHz sampling rate. Its like the HDTV signal...DVI-D is an all-digital signal, which is the best signal you can get, while VGA is all-analog, and everyone knows an all-digital signal is much better quality than an all-analog signal. When you convert from digital to analog, you lose quality, which is why they master with an all-digital signal at 24-bit/96kHz, which is the original source quality. This is also why it is almost impossible to accurately reproduce the original source quality, since the files have to be converted to analog before they can be burned onto a CD, then converted back into a digital signal when the music files are played. The benefit to an all-digital signal is this: The sound you hear is exactly the sound that is being made. That is why all songs are mastered at higher resolutions, so the sounds can be accurately reproduced without loss.

Listen to a song through your speakers or headphones through 3.5mm hookups (the analog outputs), then listen to that same song through a fiber optic setup and you'll see what I mean.

 
Most songs are mastered at 24-bit/96kHz sampling rates, which is an all-digital signal, then that signal is fed through a Digital-to-analog converter prior to being burned onto a CD. Analog signals are 16-bit/48kHz or 16-bit/44.1kHz. CD Quality is 16-bit/48kHz sampling rate.
How can an analog signal be a 16-bit? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/naughty.gif.94359f346c0f1259df8038d60b41863e.gif

16-Bit implies a digital signal by definition.

How can CD's, a digital format, contain an analog signal?

1's and 0's doth not an analog signal make.

 
Analog signals are, by definition, signals with voltage or current values that vary continuously over some range. A sine wave is one example of a simple analog signal. Voice waveforms are more complicated versions of analog signals. Digital signals are created by circuits that are designed to perform some operation on signals that are on or off. Within the limits of the circuits, the voltage or current value does not affect how the signal is processed. On or off...that is all that matters in a digital signal. A "perfect" sine wave is a 60Hz signal, or 60 cycles in one second. All analog signals are based in some way on that 60Hz signal

 
16-bit/48kHz is an analog signal, by computer definition, while 24-bit/96kHz is a digital signal by computer definition. The sampling rates on soundcards for example. The analog outputs have a sampling rate of 16-bit/48kHz while the all-digital Optical SPDIF (Sony/Philips Digital Input Format, or in this case, a beam of light instead of an RF signal) has a sampling rate of 24-bit/96kHz...That is why 24-bit/96kHz soundcards are touted as "high-definition audio"
Wrong Wrong Wrong Wrong - Wrong.

16 BIT implies 16 bits are used in each sample of time, 48Khz means 48,000 samples are taken each second. This is a DIGITAL resolution. Bits are 1's and 0's. On's and off's. That is what digital means.

Analog signals cannot have such specifications as they represent an infinite amount of samples and an infinite amount of samples taken.

You are trying to say "analog" is a level of resolution. This is just wrong.

 
Analog signals are, by definition, signals with voltage or current values that vary continuously over some range. A sine wave is one example of a simple analog signal. Voice waveforms are more complicated versions of analog signals. Digital signals are created by circuits that are designed to perform some operation on signals that are on or off. Within the limits of the circuits, the voltage or current value does not affect how the signal is processed. On or off...that is all that matters in a digital signal. A "perfect" sine wave is a 60Hz signal, or 60 cycles in one second. All analog signals are based in some way on that 60Hz signal
See my reply for his pre-edit post.

 
correct, the biggest advantage to a higher sampling rate is that when you are converting from D/A you don't introduce non-linearity into the system. Unless you quickly cutoff the info that cannot be reproduced digitally when it is being converted it can actually cause audible distortion in the audible specrtrum. If your non-recovered signal is well beyond the threshold of human hearing, even if it creeps it's way down, it may never get into the 20k region.

PS. That's a very simplistic description. Werewolf has a post on ECA somewhere that describes it MUCH better.

Anyway, judging by your pre-edited posts, you may want to spend some time reading up on just what the true differences between digital and analog are.

 
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