audio_phill 10+ year member
Walking TSP Encyclopedia
Good thing any publicity is good i guess lol. Cause this speaks pretty negatively about his actual sub designing abilities
Phillip David Reedy
some people who own subwoofer companies... might be better subway employees. My conversation with DLPcustoms today...
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Phillip David Reedy but changing parts affects the drivers behavior by changing it's tsp's?
stiffer spiders equal higher fs, lower vas, less density in the coil would typically produce a higher q. a tightly filled gap typically raises bl, and lowers qes. any change in parts could be mapped via tsp's
there's no way to design a box that would give a sub it's widest bandwidth or it's lowest f3 shelf simply by saying i used this coil and these spiders and this cone surround?
Do you have a process?
Like · Reply · 2 hours ago via mobile
DLP Customs Shoot me a email. dlpcustoms1@gmail.com to discuss this. Dont want to clog the feed here.
Like · 2 hours ago
Phillip David Reedy
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Phillip David Reedy what do you rely on?
Like · Reply · 2 hours ago via mobile
DLP Customs Parts used.
Like · 2 hours ago
Phillip David Reedy
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Phillip David Reedy lol, if they weren't important people wouldn't have spent millions developing ways to get precise tsp's. When used properly, a tsp data set will tell you everything ya need to know about the drivers inherent characteristics. low q, fast transient, high q, muddy and boomy for example. you wouldn't wasn't to put a low ebp sub in a 6th order and expect it to sound worth listening too, and vise versa, high ebp subs don't perform very well in 4th order bp's. without the tsp set, we couldn't find ebp. without knowing a drivers vas, qts and fs, designing a proper enclosure would be a long process of trial and error. granted they won't show us what it's going to sound like in a car (unless you know the peaks and troughs of the cabin response) but they are sufficient to see if the driver will play the intended frequency range it's intended to be used for, as well as it's ability to play reasonably flat or if it's gonna be peaky when trying to achieve a certain bandwidth.
Saying they aren't important is very misinforming, the tsp's once under stood, can tell you everything you need to know about the drivers abilities to suit your needs. they won't tell you how loud it will get because they don't say whether or not a driver will gain linearly as power is applied, but they are useful in predicting output when things are still within linear limits.
I've used tsp's for nearly every build I've done within the last 20 years, If someone takes the time to learn how they affect driver behavior and box volume requirements, they are a very handy tool.
Like · Reply · 2 hours ago via mobile
DLP Customs Never once did i say people did not think they are important. Once again i did not say you are wrong. Just not what i rely on.
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Phillip David Reedy
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Phillip David Reedy I'd love to see full klippel for sure... the important x parameters can't be tested with over the counter testers
Like · Reply · 3 hours ago via mobile
DLP Customs Well if you ask me i don't rely on any parameters used in TSP's. But to each their own. Not saying you are wrong. Just not what i rely on.
Like · 2 hours ago
Phillip David Reedy
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Phillip David Reedy sweet, i look forward to seeing them.
Like · Reply · 3 hours ago via mobile
DLP Customs I would love to get some sent off to klippel to get proper testing done. Just been so busy lately it is hard.
Like · 3 hours ago
Phillip David Reedy
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DLP Customs We have not pulled them for the rest yet. Hopefully soon we can some pulled.
Like · Reply · 3 hours ago
this lead to these emails
Phillip Reedy
7:29 PM (2 hours ago)
to dlpcustoms1
break it down for me, im interested in how you're achieving good results without considering the drivers tsp.s
jacob perry
7:33 PM (2 hours ago)
to me
Never said i didnt consider them. I just said it is not my sole selling point on any driver or enclosure. A driver with a fs of 39hz will have no problem playing 29hz daily. My issue with TSP's is they are measured with 1 watt of power compared to daily. Alot of things change when power is added.
Phillip Reedy
7:47 PM (2 hours ago)
to jacob
most things don't change much until the sub starts being influenced by non-linearities ie suspension tightening, surround tightening, coil ww beginning to leave the gap etc. and a low q sub won't play below it's fs well, it will rely on box gain to reach those frequencies, and won't do so without a drop in output above the tuning frequency, a sub with a higher q can more easily play below it's fs without the inherent dip seen in low q drivers. A driver with a q of .43 will reach it's fs as f3 in a box the same volume as the drivers Vas. So, by looking at just those tsp.s (q and fs) you can see the general shape of the drivers output. low q, peak at tuning if below fs and if enough box volume to bring the output at tuning back to 0dB gain, there is a drop off above, mid q is capable of flatter response, high q needs huge (in relation to Vas) enclosures, tuned below fs to flatten their response. ie, q of .5, fs 29 vas 1cu ft, the driver is well suited for a 3net enclosure at 20hz to play as flat add it's capability.
Le can cause a spike in output near 2x fs and decreases the divers upper frequency extension just as choke coil in a crossover. without knowing le, there's be no way to really optimally design a crossover in a multi driver Fullrange speaker.
typically, lower q is capable of faster response, better attack and decay, but i have came across a few drivers with a high enough bl:mms ratio to still have good attack while being of higher q.
jacob perry
8:00 PM (2 hours ago)
to me
So the params stay the same on 1w vs 800w or 1000w?
Phillip Reedy
8:02 PM (2 hours ago)
to jacob
lol, until coil heats up, suspension is altered, cool leaves the gap, or force on the cone is altered. klippel doesn't use 1w do they?
jacob perry
8:06 PM (1 hour ago)
to me
Here is the deal. You are starting a debate that i honestly have little interest or time for. You might not like my statement and that is fine. Its a opinion and everyone is entitled to one. You want to use your methods and that is fine. I told you i will get you TSP params when we slow down.
Phillip Reedy
8:16 PM (1 hour ago)
to jacob
you never did explain your process, i was just trying to figure out how you design without then?
jacob perry
8:19 PM (1 hour ago)
to me
For my market it is a whole different world then what you are used too. The same reason i use aluminum 4 layer coil vs a copper 8 layer. My market abuses the living hell out of drivers and i need to rid the heat fast as possible. I design using parts i know work together and test everything i do in the enclosures that my market uses. I find that alot more useful then what a computer spits out for me. Sorry if you feel that is wrong but it is the way i prefer to cater to the people using my drivers.
Phillip Reedy
9:12 PM (49 minutes ago)
to jacob
if you are referring to the spl market, I'm very use to it, had 3 cars running in Meca the same season. al does cool much better than copper, and with peoples tendency to send a driver clipped signals, beret cooling would definitely take precedence over copper. the specs for the 12 shape it to be a nice daily ground pounder. i would give it plenty of space and tune it well below fs, and i imagine it would be a little muddy, but quite capable.
Being in both sq and spl lanes, i am use to seeing larger than optimum boxes, and i suppose this is what you are referring to, but even those guys are not above building new boxes to sit new drivers.
What process do you use when designing your boxes?
jacob perry
9:15 PM (46 minutes ago)
to me
Trial and error. Like everyone should.
Phillip Reedy
9:16 PM (46 minutes ago)
to jacob
that's all i was after, you do use the tsp.s as a place to start though right?
So... apparently the owner has no understanding of tsp's and is actually building different enclosures in attempts to get what he wants from his drivers... Wow... Good thing I "have no idea about his market" even though I've been in the same market for 20 years and have built setups that have claimed many spl titles and set a few world records...
Phillip David Reedy
some people who own subwoofer companies... might be better subway employees. My conversation with DLPcustoms today...
Write a comment...
Phillip David Reedy but changing parts affects the drivers behavior by changing it's tsp's?
stiffer spiders equal higher fs, lower vas, less density in the coil would typically produce a higher q. a tightly filled gap typically raises bl, and lowers qes. any change in parts could be mapped via tsp's
there's no way to design a box that would give a sub it's widest bandwidth or it's lowest f3 shelf simply by saying i used this coil and these spiders and this cone surround?
Do you have a process?
Like · Reply · 2 hours ago via mobile
DLP Customs Shoot me a email. dlpcustoms1@gmail.com to discuss this. Dont want to clog the feed here.
Like · 2 hours ago
Phillip David Reedy
Write a reply...
Phillip David Reedy what do you rely on?
Like · Reply · 2 hours ago via mobile
DLP Customs Parts used.
Like · 2 hours ago
Phillip David Reedy
Write a reply...
Phillip David Reedy lol, if they weren't important people wouldn't have spent millions developing ways to get precise tsp's. When used properly, a tsp data set will tell you everything ya need to know about the drivers inherent characteristics. low q, fast transient, high q, muddy and boomy for example. you wouldn't wasn't to put a low ebp sub in a 6th order and expect it to sound worth listening too, and vise versa, high ebp subs don't perform very well in 4th order bp's. without the tsp set, we couldn't find ebp. without knowing a drivers vas, qts and fs, designing a proper enclosure would be a long process of trial and error. granted they won't show us what it's going to sound like in a car (unless you know the peaks and troughs of the cabin response) but they are sufficient to see if the driver will play the intended frequency range it's intended to be used for, as well as it's ability to play reasonably flat or if it's gonna be peaky when trying to achieve a certain bandwidth.
Saying they aren't important is very misinforming, the tsp's once under stood, can tell you everything you need to know about the drivers abilities to suit your needs. they won't tell you how loud it will get because they don't say whether or not a driver will gain linearly as power is applied, but they are useful in predicting output when things are still within linear limits.
I've used tsp's for nearly every build I've done within the last 20 years, If someone takes the time to learn how they affect driver behavior and box volume requirements, they are a very handy tool.
Like · Reply · 2 hours ago via mobile
DLP Customs Never once did i say people did not think they are important. Once again i did not say you are wrong. Just not what i rely on.
Like · 2 hours ago
Phillip David Reedy
Write a reply...
Phillip David Reedy I'd love to see full klippel for sure... the important x parameters can't be tested with over the counter testers
Like · Reply · 3 hours ago via mobile
DLP Customs Well if you ask me i don't rely on any parameters used in TSP's. But to each their own. Not saying you are wrong. Just not what i rely on.
Like · 2 hours ago
Phillip David Reedy
Write a reply...
Phillip David Reedy sweet, i look forward to seeing them.
Like · Reply · 3 hours ago via mobile
DLP Customs I would love to get some sent off to klippel to get proper testing done. Just been so busy lately it is hard.
Like · 3 hours ago
Phillip David Reedy
Write a reply...
DLP Customs We have not pulled them for the rest yet. Hopefully soon we can some pulled.
Like · Reply · 3 hours ago
this lead to these emails
Phillip Reedy
7:29 PM (2 hours ago)
to dlpcustoms1
break it down for me, im interested in how you're achieving good results without considering the drivers tsp.s
jacob perry
7:33 PM (2 hours ago)
to me
Never said i didnt consider them. I just said it is not my sole selling point on any driver or enclosure. A driver with a fs of 39hz will have no problem playing 29hz daily. My issue with TSP's is they are measured with 1 watt of power compared to daily. Alot of things change when power is added.
Phillip Reedy
7:47 PM (2 hours ago)
to jacob
most things don't change much until the sub starts being influenced by non-linearities ie suspension tightening, surround tightening, coil ww beginning to leave the gap etc. and a low q sub won't play below it's fs well, it will rely on box gain to reach those frequencies, and won't do so without a drop in output above the tuning frequency, a sub with a higher q can more easily play below it's fs without the inherent dip seen in low q drivers. A driver with a q of .43 will reach it's fs as f3 in a box the same volume as the drivers Vas. So, by looking at just those tsp.s (q and fs) you can see the general shape of the drivers output. low q, peak at tuning if below fs and if enough box volume to bring the output at tuning back to 0dB gain, there is a drop off above, mid q is capable of flatter response, high q needs huge (in relation to Vas) enclosures, tuned below fs to flatten their response. ie, q of .5, fs 29 vas 1cu ft, the driver is well suited for a 3net enclosure at 20hz to play as flat add it's capability.
Le can cause a spike in output near 2x fs and decreases the divers upper frequency extension just as choke coil in a crossover. without knowing le, there's be no way to really optimally design a crossover in a multi driver Fullrange speaker.
typically, lower q is capable of faster response, better attack and decay, but i have came across a few drivers with a high enough bl:mms ratio to still have good attack while being of higher q.
jacob perry
8:00 PM (2 hours ago)
to me
So the params stay the same on 1w vs 800w or 1000w?
Phillip Reedy
8:02 PM (2 hours ago)
to jacob
lol, until coil heats up, suspension is altered, cool leaves the gap, or force on the cone is altered. klippel doesn't use 1w do they?
jacob perry
8:06 PM (1 hour ago)
to me
Here is the deal. You are starting a debate that i honestly have little interest or time for. You might not like my statement and that is fine. Its a opinion and everyone is entitled to one. You want to use your methods and that is fine. I told you i will get you TSP params when we slow down.
Phillip Reedy
8:16 PM (1 hour ago)
to jacob
you never did explain your process, i was just trying to figure out how you design without then?
jacob perry
8:19 PM (1 hour ago)
to me
For my market it is a whole different world then what you are used too. The same reason i use aluminum 4 layer coil vs a copper 8 layer. My market abuses the living hell out of drivers and i need to rid the heat fast as possible. I design using parts i know work together and test everything i do in the enclosures that my market uses. I find that alot more useful then what a computer spits out for me. Sorry if you feel that is wrong but it is the way i prefer to cater to the people using my drivers.
Phillip Reedy
9:12 PM (49 minutes ago)
to jacob
if you are referring to the spl market, I'm very use to it, had 3 cars running in Meca the same season. al does cool much better than copper, and with peoples tendency to send a driver clipped signals, beret cooling would definitely take precedence over copper. the specs for the 12 shape it to be a nice daily ground pounder. i would give it plenty of space and tune it well below fs, and i imagine it would be a little muddy, but quite capable.
Being in both sq and spl lanes, i am use to seeing larger than optimum boxes, and i suppose this is what you are referring to, but even those guys are not above building new boxes to sit new drivers.
What process do you use when designing your boxes?
jacob perry
9:15 PM (46 minutes ago)
to me
Trial and error. Like everyone should.
Phillip Reedy
9:16 PM (46 minutes ago)
to jacob
that's all i was after, you do use the tsp.s as a place to start though right?
So... apparently the owner has no understanding of tsp's and is actually building different enclosures in attempts to get what he wants from his drivers... Wow... Good thing I "have no idea about his market" even though I've been in the same market for 20 years and have built setups that have claimed many spl titles and set a few world records...
