RMS for good sound? (SQ is the goal)

[Savant 10+ year member]

Here is the issue..

I'm looking to get 2 12" subs and 2 10" subs to augment my stock system (still trying to get stats on what's in there.. 2001 ZR2 Blazer, non-bose I think).. I know you need a lot more power to bring bass up to the same levels as the rest of the system (tweeters, etc).. But, I don't know 'how much more' you need...

So, lets say I have 15w clean on the stock system (dash, door, and rear speakers will have the bass turned down on the HU).. I plan on running the 12s to about 75 - 80 HZ, then running the 10s from 80 - 85 HZ up to around 150 - 200 HZ.. That should take care of the range that the factory speakers can't really reproduce well and certianly can't do loudly (not as loud as the rest of the system gets to, or so it seems)..

So, is there a multiplier(ish) thing for low bass vs upper ranges as far as power for certian db levels? Like at 100 db, you need 5x the power to get ~50 HZ to be on par with the upper ranges? I doubt there is any magic number.. but.. The other thing would be, how can I get a feel for certian db levels in my Blazer? what would I use to measure that? I've been trying to ask some of the audio guys at local clubs what they are running for wattage at certian sound levels, but no one really seems to be able to help (and I presume you need a lot more watts to fill the space of a club vs what you would need for the same db level in a vehicle: one club runs 10,000 RMS, or so they say but only have the system up at 30% - 50%, and 10,000 is spread out over a lot of speakers, min of 16ish boxes each with multiple speakers.. but still)

Now, I'm not looking for 'total watts' either.. I'm looking for a rough guess for what I'd have to run in each 12 and each 10 to get decent low end but not so much as to totally wash the rest of the music.. Does that make sense?

Here is what I was initially looking into

(2) 12" Pyramid 'Royal Red' 1200 w subs (~600 rms)

(~$100 for the pair)

(2) 10" Pyramid 600 watt subs (~300 rms mostly for the color match to the 12s..)

(~$75 for pair)

(3) Legacy la970 amps (~$104 each), one for each 12 (1200 watts bridged, ~600 RMS) and one for both 10"s (600/channel.. ~300 rms).. Though, I've recently been informed that Legacy amps are a bit crappy.. I may have to re-think the amp setup.. They have some pretty big amps that should be able to run decent.. I could get something like the la2070 2400w, 1200x2.. should be able to get at least 300 rms (in any event) for both 10s.. ~$144 for amp..

Total costs.. ~$480 - $520 (no wiring/boxes/etc)

Now, I'm guessing I'd have to have the gain WAY down on that big of a system and only having stock stuff the rest of the way up (from ~200 HZ up). But, I'd also like to make sure that when I decide to get some 8"s (maybe) and 6"s for more fleshing out of the spectrum, I want to be able to run up a bit more power total (since the factory speakers would mostly be tweeters/etc at that point).. But, I still don't know if 2x600 rms for the 12s is too much or not..

The big thing is, I'm looking for SQ, not comp stuff.. I'm wanting to clean up the sound at decent volumes on a stock system, not try to draw attention to myself with a lot of thumping (I'd mostly have the system cranked on the highway...)

So.. is this overkill for what I'm looking for? Should I go for 4 10"s instead (though most can't get down near 30 HZ very well.. The ones I'm looking at claim to get to 34 HZ..) and look at 2 x 300 and 2 x 150(ish) for the ranges I'm trying to pick up (

The type of music listened to is part of this too, I guess.. Mostly rock for me.. some hard, some regular.. some death/speed metal.. Floyd, Pearl Jam, Old Metalica, etc etc etc... not really gonna be doing any rap, so I'm not even sure how low I have to be able to reproduce HZ wise..

Anyway.. I guess I've beat this to death, I hope you get the idea of what I'm asking //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crazy.gif.c13912c32de98515d3142759a824dae7.gif .. Since I don't have any reference point, I have to appeal to people who have been doing this for a while and have a better idea of what volume you can get from x Watts in a sub..

Thanks!

Savant

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[MikeofTulsa Moderator]

Originally posted by Savant Here is the issue..

 

I'm looking to get 2 12" subs and 2 10" subs to augment my stock system (still trying to get stats on what's in there.. 2001 ZR2 Blazer, non-bose I think).. I know you need a lot more power to bring bass up to the same levels as the rest of the system (tweeters, etc).. But, I don't know 'how much more' you need...

 

So, lets say I have 15w clean on the stock system (dash, door, and rear speakers will have the bass turned down on the HU).. I plan on running the 12s to about 75 - 80 HZ, then running the 10s from 80 - 85 HZ up to around 150 - 200 HZ.. That should take care of the range that the factory speakers can't really reproduce well and certianly can't do loudly (not as loud as the rest of the system gets to, or so it seems)..

 

 

 

 

sounds good so far

 

 

 

 

So, is there a multiplier(ish) thing for low bass vs upper ranges as far as power for certian db levels? Like at 100 db, you need 5x the power to get ~50 HZ to be on par with the upper ranges? I doubt there is any magic number.. but.. The other thing would be, how can I get a feel for certian db levels in my Blazer? what would I use to measure that? I've been trying to ask some of the audio guys at local clubs what they are running for wattage at certian sound levels, but no one really seems to be able to help (and I presume you need a lot more watts to fill the space of a club vs what you would need for the same db level in a vehicle: one club runs 10,000 RMS, or so they say but only have the system up at 30% - 50%, and 10,000 is spread out over a lot of speakers, min of 16ish boxes each with multiple speakers.. but still)

 

 

 

 

 

if i read that your wanting to know how to keep the sound at a certain db??? if thats the case its solely dependant upon how many watts, type of enclosure, and effeciency of the sub

 

 

 

 

Now, I'm not looking for 'total watts' either.. I'm looking for a rough guess for what I'd have to run in each 12 and each 10 to get decent low end but not so much as to totally wash the rest of the music.. Does that make sense?

 

 

 

 

and yes that does make sense....

 

 

 

Here is what I was initially looking into

 

(2) 12" Pyramid 'Royal Red' 1200 w subs (~600 rms)

(~$100 for the pair)

(2) 10" Pyramid 600 watt subs (~300 rms mostly for the color match to the 12s..)

(~$75 for pair)

 

(3) Legacy la970 amps (~$104 each), one for each 12 (1200 watts bridged, ~600 RMS) and one for both 10"s (600/channel.. ~300 rms).. Though, I've recently been informed that Legacy amps are a bit crappy.. I may have to re-think the amp setup.. They have some pretty big amps that should be able to run decent.. I could get something like the la2070 2400w, 1200x2.. should be able to get at least 300 rms (in any event) for both 10s.. ~$144 for amp..

 

Total costs.. ~$480 - $520 (no wiring/boxes/etc)

 

 

 

definatly stay away from anything w/ the name of legacy or pyramid on it....basicly the lowest line of car audio you could buy....and they horribly overrate thier stuff....it it says 1000w amp...probably only puts out maybe 200 watss......

 

 

 

 

 

Now, I'm guessing I'd have to have the gain WAY down on that big of a system and only having stock stuff the rest of the way up (from ~200 HZ up). But, I'd also like to make sure that when I decide to get some 8"s (maybe) and 6"s for more fleshing out of the spectrum, I want to be able to run up a bit more power total (since the factory speakers would mostly be tweeters/etc at that point)..

 

But, I still don't know if 2x600 rms for the 12s is too much or not..

 

 

 

 

nope

 

 

 

 

The big thing is, I'm looking for SQ, not comp stuff.. I'm wanting to clean up the sound at decent volumes on a stock system, not try to draw attention to myself with a lot of thumping (I'd mostly have the system cranked on the highway...)

 

 

 

well there are alot of companys that do good things w/ sq...(adire is one) and u can deaden your vechile to help w/ that....

 

 

 

 

 

So.. is this overkill for what I'm looking for? Should I go for 4 10"s instead (though most can't get down near 30 HZ very well.. The ones I'm looking at claim to get to 34 HZ..) and look at 2 x 300 and 2 x 150(ish) for the ranges I'm trying to pick up (

 

 

well....i think the 10's and 12's are a good idea....so long as they are the same model

 

 

The type of music listened to is part of this too, I guess.. Mostly rock for me.. some hard, some regular.. some death/speed metal.. Floyd, Pearl Jam, Old Metalica, etc etc etc... not really gonna be doing any rap, so I'm not even sure how low I have to be able to reproduce HZ wise..

 

Anyway.. I guess I've beat this to death, I hope you get the idea of what I'm asking //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crazy.gif.c13912c32de98515d3142759a824dae7.gif .. Since I don't have any reference point, I have to appeal to people who have been doing this for a while and have a better idea of what volume you can get from x Watts in a sub..

 

 

Thanks!

 

Savant

ok....now that i answerd all those questions as i understood them.....how about going back and asking any questions you have regarding my answers or anyone elses answers.....

 

[MikeofTulsa Moderator]

man u beat me

 

[MikeofTulsa Moderator]

jmac...ur forgetting the shiva man...come on.....heh....hows it going man??? never really talked to u much before

 

[MikeofTulsa Moderator]

well thats what i do all day long....while im suppost to be working

 

[GSteg 10+ year member]

no no no..don't put the shiva's in a 1.5cubic feet box!! 2.0 sounds much better //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

 

[MikeofTulsa Moderator]

if im not mistaken..... .5cu ft isnt really going to be all that noticable...might be a little....but nothing great.....

 

[GSteg 10+ year member]

2.5 is where the shiva really shines. dan recommened about 2.5, while 2.0 will still sound good. these shiva's are box hungry!

 

[Lockout 10+ year member]

Originally posted by Jmac 8s - Clarion SRW-2081 ($100) or Kicker RMB8 ($105)

Amp for 8s - US Acoustics USX2080 ($85)

Would there be a significant improvement in sound with having a 12" sub, a pair of 8's, and a component set instead of just having the 12 and the components? ie enough to spend ~$190 on? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[Savant 10+ year member]

Originally posted by Jmac 12s - Alpine Type-S ($140)

Amp for 12s - US Acoustics USX2100 ($125)

 

8s - Clarion SRW-2081 ($100) or Kicker RMB8 ($105)

Amp for 8s - US Acoustics USX2080 ($85)

 

6.5" Speakers - Infinity Kappa 60.5cs Components ($160)

Amp for 6.5s - US Acoustics USX2080 ($85)

 

Use kick panels for the 6.5s. 12s should be in a 1 ft^3/chamber sealed box. 8s can be free-air or go in a small enclosure ...

 

Works out to about $700 + shipping ...

Actually, your missing one amp for the 12s (200 RMS on each 12", 100 from the amp? na, bridge for the 200 to match 12") and those are $170 not $125 (it's confusing cause the site says you 'save $124.95', but that's not the 'price'.. that got me too the first time..) Same problem with the 8s.. need two amps (another at $85, each amp channel is only 80w, each speaker is ~150).. So, the cost is closer to $1,000.. almost double what I was hoping to spend, and the max power would only be 200 RMS.. I was looking at ~600 (though, since it's supposed to be junky stuff, that's closer to 200 RMS anyway.. or at least that's the rumor //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif )

 

[n2audio 5,000+ posts]

As far as the pyramid/legacy issue goes...I think subs are the least of your worries. You can probably get away with some low end subs as long as your enclosure is right and power is sufficient.

My only suggestion is to stay away from thier amps. If you're just wanting to beef up your factory system or something they're fine, but if you are sincerely wanting to get some legitimate sq you won't get it from those amps -- not because they "sound" bad -- but because they just don't have the power you're going to need to get good sound at even moderate volumes.

As I always say, if you're wanting a "real" amp, but not wanting to spend a ton, the optidrives on ebay are absolute steals.

The 1000.1D's have been going for a couple hundred -- they'll power any reasonable combination of subs you can throw at them.

The 200.2's are selling for around 160 I think.