PLEASE tell me hes wrong

[Eldorado 5,000+ posts]

Its actually really small and powerful

 

[ramos 5,000+ posts]

I feel bad for anyone with that amp.

I have a couple older model amps, that some would die for. Don't feel bad for them. THere was life in car audio before the type arrr //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[ngsm13 5,000+ posts]

What a ***.

nG

 

[iagrdshaka 5,000+ posts]

:shakes head:

 

[xmax-1 10+ year member]

Your the man, Instead of using the volume on my head unit. I'm gonna hop out and adjust the gain on each of my amps. sounds so much easier //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

Naw man.........you mount the amp into the dash and use it as a HU. That's what mark does. Didn't you read his example he gave to me earlier? LMFAO:crazy:

 

[xmax-1 10+ year member]

I'll put it this way..........when my amplifier manufacturer says that " the input gain can also double as a volume control", then I might take you seriously (dooubt it though). Untill then.................as they ALL say, "THE GAIN IS NOT A VOLUME CONTROL", nor was/is it intended to be used as such.

Sorry, I'm from old school and have been taught by professionals older than the both of us.

 

[helotaxi 5,000+ posts]

Sad thing is that a lot of the posters in this thread have most of the puzzle but their closed-minded pigheaded insistance that they have to be 100% correct is preventing them from seeing that the person that they are so viciously arguing with has the rest of the puzzle.

The whole picture:

You have a source unit be it a CD player, FM Tuner, XM tuner, mp3 player, whatever. The actual source unit takes an input signal from source material and converts it into a vlotage. At this point the voltage is really small and insufficient for tranmission over a long distance, it would just get lost in the noise. In steps the preamp. All a preamp is is an amplifier with a volume knob that is technically called a gain adjustment control. The job of the preamp is to amplify the voltage of the source unit to a level usable for tranmission to the input stage of the power amplifier. The job of the power amplifier is to take the signal from the preamp and convert it into a higher voltage signal with the capability of driving a comparatively low impedance load. The output stage of a power amp has a fixed gain structure. The input signal voltage is multiplied a fixed number of times for the output. At the same time it is modulating a voltage rail of a fixed maximum voltage. As long as the input signal times the gain multiplier is less than the rail voltage clipping will not be and issue. If all preamps worked over the same range of voltages, there would never have to be a gain control on a power amp. However, since that isn't the case, car amps have been equipped with a preamp of their own to match the upstream preamp signal with the fixed gain structure of the power amp. Just like the earlier preamp, it has an adjustable gain. This preamp has a range of input voltage that will allow it to supply the power amp with the signal voltage that it needs to provide maximum unclipped power.

The typical way for all this to come together is as such. The preamp with the source unit is set to acheive its maximum output voltage. The preamp on the power amp is then adjusted to attain maximum power from the amp. The gain or volume control (the two terms are technically fully interchangable) on the source unit preamp is then adjusted to get the output needed for the desired listening volume. That is the typical, but certainly not the only way.

I have had setups in the past where I had a separate preamp after the HU. I set the volume on the HU and left it. I then set the adjustable input gain on the preamp to keep it from clipping and then adjusted the power amp's preamp to keep them from clipping with the dedicated external preamp gain control set to max.

Every preamp level component is going to have a gain control, and some will have two. One for the input level and one for the output level. Any one of these controls can be used to adjust the volume of the signal going through them. You could use any one of them as a volume control, what it all comes down to is convenience. If you have a remote gain control for our amp, all it is is a seperate volume knob for that one amp. You still match the amp to the input level with the gain on the amp itself to prevent clipping but you can turn the amp down from there with the remote gain. At the same time, you can set the gain on the amp itself to limit the max power that the amp will produce with the signal that your source device will put out. For example, if you have a source unit that has a max output voltage of 2V and you set the gain on the amp so that it will take 5V of input to produce maximum power, you have limited the power produced by the amp. The amp still has the potential to produce more, but unless you adjust the gain on the amp, it won't do it with that source unit.

If you understand how cascading gains works, you can use it to great effect to fine tune a system. If you don't understand it, you can greatly mess up things and damage equipment.

To the original poster, you are right and the guy you were arguing with is an idiot.

 

[helotaxi 5,000+ posts]

I'll put it this way..........when my amplifier manufacturer says that " the input gain can also double as a volume control", then I might take you seriously (dooubt it though). Untill then.................as they ALL say, "THE GAIN IS NOT A VOLUME CONTROL", nor was/is it intended to be used as such.
Sorry, I'm from old school and have been taught by professionals older than the both of us.

If you were to talk to the tech that designed the amp, he would tell you exactly that. He would also tell you what the maximum input voltage would be to allow you to use the full range of the gain dial as a volume control without clipping the amp. If you really understood this stuff rather than just regurgitate the absolute basics that are taught at the installer schools, you would know that. The schools teach you the very basics of doing a correct install. If you want to do more than that you are actually going to have to learn on your own.

BTW, I'm from the old school, too. The equipment from the old school is not the same as the stuff today. There are new things out there that aren't going to be covered in a basic install course.

Older doesn't necessarily mean smarter. All too often poeple get stuck in the old ways. Look at engine tech. I ride Harley's, and the sheer number of old guys that have been around them forever and swear by carburators is astounding. The fact is that a modern EFI system will produce more power more consistently with less fuel consumption and fewer noxious emmissions than a carb could hope to. But you will never convince the old guys of that.

 

[Eldorado 5,000+ posts]

lets face it

helotaxi is a n00b //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/tongue.gif.6130eb82179565f6db8d26d6001dcd24.gif

 

[helotaxi 5,000+ posts]

lets face ithelotaxi is a n00b //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/tongue.gif.6130eb82179565f6db8d26d6001dcd24.gif

Yep. Total, utter and complete noob.

 

[Eldorado 5,000+ posts]

Installer schools dont tell you how things work, they tell you how to install them

 

[delvryboy 5,000+ posts]

Sad thing is that a lot of the posters in this thread have most of the puzzle but their closed-minded pigheaded insistance that they have to be 100% correct is preventing them from seeing that the person that they are so viciously arguing with has the rest of the puzzle.
The whole picture:

You have a source unit be it a CD player, FM Tuner, XM tuner, mp3 player, whatever. The actual source unit takes an input signal from source material and converts it into a vlotage. At this point the voltage is really small and insufficient for tranmission over a long distance, it would just get lost in the noise. In steps the preamp. All a preamp is is an amplifier with a volume knob that is technically called a gain adjustment control. The job of the preamp is to amplify the voltage of the source unit to a level usable for tranmission to the input stage of the power amplifier. The job of the power amplifier is to take the signal from the preamp and convert it into a higher voltage signal with the capability of driving a comparatively low impedance load. The output stage of a power amp has a fixed gain structure. The input signal voltage is multiplied a fixed number of times for the output. At the same time it is modulating a voltage rail of a fixed maximum voltage. As long as the input signal times the gain multiplier is less than the rail voltage clipping will not be and issue. If all preamps worked over the same range of voltages, there would never have to be a gain control on a power amp. However, since that isn't the case, car amps have been equipped with a preamp of their own to match the upstream preamp signal with the fixed gain structure of the power amp. Just like the earlier preamp, it has an adjustable gain. This preamp has a range of input voltage that will allow it to supply the power amp with the signal voltage that it needs to provide maximum unclipped power.

The typical way for all this to come together is as such. The preamp with the source unit is set to acheive its maximum output voltage. The preamp on the power amp is then adjusted to attain maximum power from the amp. The gain or volume control (the two terms are technically fully interchangable) on the source unit preamp is then adjusted to get the output needed for the desired listening volume. That is the typical, but certainly not the only way.

I have had setups in the past where I had a separate preamp after the HU. I set the volume on the HU and left it. I then set the adjustable input gain on the preamp to keep it from clipping and then adjusted the power amp's preamp to keep them from clipping with the dedicated external preamp gain control set to max.

Every preamp level component is going to have a gain control, and some will have two. One for the input level and one for the output level. Any one of these controls can be used to adjust the volume of the signal going through them. You could use any one of them as a volume control, what it all comes down to is convenience. If you have a remote gain control for our amp, all it is is a seperate volume knob for that one amp. You still match the amp to the input level with the gain on the amp itself to prevent clipping but you can turn the amp down from there with the remote gain. At the same time, you can set the gain on the amp itself to limit the max power that the amp will produce with the signal that your source device will put out. For example, if you have a source unit that has a max output voltage of 2V and you set the gain on the amp so that it will take 5V of input to produce maximum power, you have limited the power produced by the amp. The amp still has the potential to produce more, but unless you adjust the gain on the amp, it won't do it with that source unit.

If you understand how cascading gains works, you can use it to great effect to fine tune a system. If you don't understand it, you can greatly mess up things and damage equipment.

To the original poster, you are right and the guy you were arguing with is an idiot.

thank you sir.

 

[Hundreth 10+ year member]

Sad thing is that a lot of the posters in this thread have most of the puzzle but their closed-minded pigheaded insistance that they have to be 100% correct is preventing them from seeing that the person that they are so viciously arguing with has the rest of the puzzle.
The whole picture:

You have a source unit be it a CD player, FM Tuner, XM tuner, mp3 player, whatever. The actual source unit takes an input signal from source material and converts it into a vlotage. At this point the voltage is really small and insufficient for tranmission over a long distance, it would just get lost in the noise. In steps the preamp. All a preamp is is an amplifier with a volume knob that is technically called a gain adjustment control. The job of the preamp is to amplify the voltage of the source unit to a level usable for tranmission to the input stage of the power amplifier. The job of the power amplifier is to take the signal from the preamp and convert it into a higher voltage signal with the capability of driving a comparatively low impedance load. The output stage of a power amp has a fixed gain structure. The input signal voltage is multiplied a fixed number of times for the output. At the same time it is modulating a voltage rail of a fixed maximum voltage. As long as the input signal times the gain multiplier is less than the rail voltage clipping will not be and issue. If all preamps worked over the same range of voltages, there would never have to be a gain control on a power amp. However, since that isn't the case, car amps have been equipped with a preamp of their own to match the upstream preamp signal with the fixed gain structure of the power amp. Just like the earlier preamp, it has an adjustable gain. This preamp has a range of input voltage that will allow it to supply the power amp with the signal voltage that it needs to provide maximum unclipped power.

The typical way for all this to come together is as such. The preamp with the source unit is set to acheive its maximum output voltage. The preamp on the power amp is then adjusted to attain maximum power from the amp. The gain or volume control (the two terms are technically fully interchangable) on the source unit preamp is then adjusted to get the output needed for the desired listening volume. That is the typical, but certainly not the only way.

I have had setups in the past where I had a separate preamp after the HU. I set the volume on the HU and left it. I then set the adjustable input gain on the preamp to keep it from clipping and then adjusted the power amp's preamp to keep them from clipping with the dedicated external preamp gain control set to max.

Every preamp level component is going to have a gain control, and some will have two. One for the input level and one for the output level. Any one of these controls can be used to adjust the volume of the signal going through them. You could use any one of them as a volume control, what it all comes down to is convenience. If you have a remote gain control for our amp, all it is is a seperate volume knob for that one amp. You still match the amp to the input level with the gain on the amp itself to prevent clipping but you can turn the amp down from there with the remote gain. At the same time, you can set the gain on the amp itself to limit the max power that the amp will produce with the signal that your source device will put out. For example, if you have a source unit that has a max output voltage of 2V and you set the gain on the amp so that it will take 5V of input to produce maximum power, you have limited the power produced by the amp. The amp still has the potential to produce more, but unless you adjust the gain on the amp, it won't do it with that source unit.

If you understand how cascading gains works, you can use it to great effect to fine tune a system. If you don't understand it, you can greatly mess up things and damage equipment.

To the original poster, you are right and the guy you were arguing with is an idiot.

Yup, Potts is actually 100% correct. The gain IS a volume knob. The volume knob is a gain. You can get a clipped signal by raising the gain too high for the source, you can get a clipped signal by raising the volume too high for the gain.

People just like to bash.

 

[Eldorado 5,000+ posts]

My eclipse doesnt clip at full volume....

 

[Spkrman]

Sad thing is that a lot of the posters in this thread have most of the puzzle but their closed-minded pigheaded insistance that they have to be 100% correct is preventing them from seeing that the person that they are so viciously arguing with has the rest of the puzzle.
The whole picture:

You have a source unit be it a CD player, FM Tuner, XM tuner, mp3 player, whatever. The actual source unit takes an input signal from source material and converts it into a vlotage. At this point the voltage is really small and insufficient for tranmission over a long distance, it would just get lost in the noise. In steps the preamp. All a preamp is is an amplifier with a volume knob that is technically called a gain adjustment control. The job of the preamp is to amplify the voltage of the source unit to a level usable for tranmission to the input stage of the power amplifier. The job of the power amplifier is to take the signal from the preamp and convert it into a higher voltage signal with the capability of driving a comparatively low impedance load. The output stage of a power amp has a fixed gain structure. The input signal voltage is multiplied a fixed number of times for the output. At the same time it is modulating a voltage rail of a fixed maximum voltage. As long as the input signal times the gain multiplier is less than the rail voltage clipping will not be and issue. If all preamps worked over the same range of voltages, there would never have to be a gain control on a power amp. However, since that isn't the case, car amps have been equipped with a preamp of their own to match the upstream preamp signal with the fixed gain structure of the power amp. Just like the earlier preamp, it has an adjustable gain. This preamp has a range of input voltage that will allow it to supply the power amp with the signal voltage that it needs to provide maximum unclipped power.

The typical way for all this to come together is as such. The preamp with the source unit is set to acheive its maximum output voltage. The preamp on the power amp is then adjusted to attain maximum power from the amp. The gain or volume control (the two terms are technically fully interchangable) on the source unit preamp is then adjusted to get the output needed for the desired listening volume. That is the typical, but certainly not the only way.

I have had setups in the past where I had a separate preamp after the HU. I set the volume on the HU and left it. I then set the adjustable input gain on the preamp to keep it from clipping and then adjusted the power amp's preamp to keep them from clipping with the dedicated external preamp gain control set to max.

Every preamp level component is going to have a gain control, and some will have two. One for the input level and one for the output level. Any one of these controls can be used to adjust the volume of the signal going through them. You could use any one of them as a volume control, what it all comes down to is convenience. If you have a remote gain control for our amp, all it is is a seperate volume knob for that one amp. You still match the amp to the input level with the gain on the amp itself to prevent clipping but you can turn the amp down from there with the remote gain. At the same time, you can set the gain on the amp itself to limit the max power that the amp will produce with the signal that your source device will put out. For example, if you have a source unit that has a max output voltage of 2V and you set the gain on the amp so that it will take 5V of input to produce maximum power, you have limited the power produced by the amp. The amp still has the potential to produce more, but unless you adjust the gain on the amp, it won't do it with that source unit.

If you understand how cascading gains works, you can use it to great effect to fine tune a system. If you don't understand it, you can greatly mess up things and damage equipment.

To the original poster, you are right and the guy you were arguing with is an idiot.

Awesome post... and thats what I was trying to get across, instead of just regurgitating the BS. You have to fully understand the signal path and what does what... it frees you up to try new stuff/new ideas. "dumbing it down" for the noobs is what keeps the various myths and BS goin.

one more time, good post!