Pioneer 80Prs worth it if..

[TaylorFade 10+ year member]

Well THEY are limited you tard.. Thats a ******* step down you tard.. Now go **** yourself and at least have valid points when you speak you tard.

You missed what he said. He wasn't agreeing that they were a step down. He was agreeing that on any bi-ampable coax, you have all of that control.

And actually... the coax I'm running now aren't bi-ampable. And the tweeters dont swivel. Oh noes!! I think you'd be surprised.

80hz and up. No EQ. Stage height did suffer a tad, but these are in the doors.

That's a whole lot of information from a $100 set of speakers. No phase issues. Nasty reflections are gone.

 

[ciaonzo 5,000+ posts]

I've ran the forum boners Bro. I always end up going back to the better side. The proven side. Why "find" a way to do something when a comp set can do it right out of the box. That's like people buying vvmes and putting more CA glue on them to even work.

 

---------- Post added at 11:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:03 PM ----------

 

You can point the tweeter in a small circle. That's everything alright.

It's still going over your head, bro. You're limited, though. It's okay.

 

[LosIsATool 5,000+ posts]

You missed what he said. He wasn't agreeing that they were a step down. He was agreeing that on any bi-ampable coax, you have all of that control.
And actually... the coax I'm running now aren't bi-ampable. And the tweeters dont swivel. Oh noes!! I think you'd be surprised.

80hz and up. No EQ. Stage height did suffer a tad, but these are in the doors.

That's a whole lot of information from a $100 set of speakers. No phase issues. Nasty reflections are gone.

RTA don't show the stage. And is that the JL app?

 

[LosIsATool 5,000+ posts]

It's still going over your head, bro. You're limited, though. It's okay.

It's cool. I'm limited and you have no idea what musical reproduction is. But you have some tc baskets so you know your stuff.

 

[TaylorFade 10+ year member]

RTA don't show the stage. And is that the JL app?

I just told you my height suffers a bit. It's not as bad as you may think with T/A though. Get it dialed in and it comes up. Not everyone has the option, but I also have sail tweets that I can use for "upstage." I can fade them in at 8k, -36db and -11/-13db and it's right back at eye level.

That's the audiotools app. I have the iTestMic. I got sick of software glitches in my SPL Labs RTA.

 

[TaylorFade 10+ year member]

But if you prefer... this is it with the sails in the mix and a little EQ.

That was before smoothing out that garbage between 4-9khz.

 

[LosIsATool 5,000+ posts]

I just told you my height suffers a bit. It's not as bad as you may think with T/A though. Get it dialed in and it comes up. Not everyone has the option, but I also have sail tweets that I can use for "upstage." I can fade them in at 8k, -36db and -11/-13db and it's right back at eye level.
That's the audiotools app. I have the iTestMic. I got sick of software glitches in my SPL Labs RTA.

Ok. It looks like the JL one. It wasn't to far off from a AC RTA. Cool thing about a good comp set which you already know this. I can put the band in the center of my dash.. It's a real good recording when you can picture them moving around. AND a three way keeps up with a 150db sub stage.

 

[TaylorFade 10+ year member]

Ok. It looks like the JL one. It wasn't to far off from a AC RTA. Cool thing about a good comp set which you already know this. I can put the band in the center of my dash.. It's a real good recording when you can picture them moving around. AND a three way keeps up with a 150db sub stage.

Even with the sails out of the equation, I can get it center of the dash. Higher frequency information is a little low but not terrible. Funny thing is my depth is better with the coax than the comps. I'm actually considering leaving the tweets down low even if I go back to a comp set. I'll just make a bridge for the tweet or kick mount them as close as I can (if the rules will allow. I'm still waiting on word from the rules and ethics commitee).

There's so many things to like about low mounted tweeters. ESPECIALLY if you have the option of upstage ones like I do.

Don't put too much stock into the internal mic on those apps below 250hz. I honestly think it's just guessing down there. Lol.

 

[LosIsATool 5,000+ posts]

Even with the sails out of the equation, I can get it center of the dash. Higher frequency information is a little low but not terrible. Funny thing is my depth is better with the coax than the comps. I'm actually considering leaving the tweets down low even if I go back to a comp set. I'll just make a bridge for the tweet or kick mount them as close as I can (if the rules will allow. I'm still waiting on word from the rules and ethics commitee).
There's so many things to like about low mounted tweeters. ESPECIALLY if you have the option of upstage ones like I do.

Don't put too much stock into the internal mic on those apps below 250hz. I honestly think it's just guessing down there. Lol.

I tried them low when I ran a pair of C5s. They couldnt crossover low enough to get any kind of seperation. I think back now and a set of off-axis tweeters on the dash might of helped.

 

[TaylorFade 10+ year member]

I tried them low when I ran a pair of C5s. They couldnt crossover low enough to get any kind of seperation. I think back now and a set of off-axis tweeters on the dash might of helped.

Seperation? How do you mean?

I run the C5's in my sails so i know all about how low the CAN'T go. Lol. 6.3khz and they're beautiful though.

 

[LosIsATool 5,000+ posts]

Seperation? How do you mean?
I run the C5's in my sails so i know all about how low the CAN'T go. Lol. 6.3khz and they're beautiful though.

They sounded good, very nuetral just not for me. I wanted to put my tweeters in the sails where I've had the best luck in this car with the mid range in the stock area. It sounded like there was a gap.

 

[keep_hope_alive Premium Member]

wow, this thread moved around a bit!

the JL Audio RTA app is developed by Studio Six Digital. I've communicated with the developer. Note that low frequency accuracy is very limited (below 200Hz) due to Apple using a sharp high-pass filter on the mic (slope varies based on iphone/ipad/itouch version). so the app tries to compensate for the slope and does so poorly. Also, the mic is highly directional so where you point it determines what high frequency response you will have. Since the mic used is on the front, you cannot see and measure at the same time. Keep that in mind.

- Do I have a budget speaker system? yes. $150 total with 6.5" mid/midbass, 4" mid, and .75" tweeters. Right now i'm just running a 2-way active setup, so $100 total. Yes, it sounds very nice.

- Does it have an excellent sound stage? yes. the soundstage is perfect in height, width, and center. Depth is good. It is the result of time alignment along with a lot of testing of many speakers in many locations. The front of the car has a total of 10 speaker locations (5 per side). I've tried every possible combination.

- How much time? difficult to nail down. in the car - over 400 hours. in the front stage, probably half of that. I focus most of my effort on my front stage. The trunk was another large chunk of time, mostly wiring and mounting amps and the IB wall.

- Am I done? nope. Not even close. I will redo the kicks and build pods for 2" on the dash. I will continue to experiment with 2" in the dash vs. 4" in the kicks. Up till now, 2" in the dash are superior. I will likely redo the trunk amp mounting and beauty panels.

- Is the weakest link in my system the speakers? certainly. better speakers can provide better sound. Once you get the install hashed out, the equipment becomes the weak link. But that is a very time consuming point to reach.

- Is it the best car i've heard? nope. It's the best i've owned but my speaker investment is the weak link. The Scion tC is better. But the $$$ investment is substantial and time investment is not trivial.

Coaxial speakers, good or bad? depends. is the tweeter placement good? no. almost though. a coincident tweeter (mounted in pole piece) is the ideal location. Orion had these in their XTR line back in the 90's (i had a pair). Eclipse did this in their Point Source series (I've had those also). Other companies have as well (MB Quart). Mounting the tweeter in front of the woofer is not done anywhere else. Even in home audio the tweeter location is recessed to align with the acoustical center of the woofers.

The biggest hindrance of a coaxial is usually the crossover. A single cap on the tweeter is typical. Proper filtering is still required to prevent overlap and avoid the point where the woofer cone experiences "break-up", the point where response becomes erratic. That requires a low-pass on the woofer. The inability to run active is also a challenge because it makes level control difficult to achieve - the tweeter is usually over-powered while trying to get good output from the less sensitive woofer.

Another challenge to coaxial is that factory door locations are poor tweeter locations. Any place that is blocked by your body is a bad place for a tweeter.

Placing a speaker with a coincident tweeter in your kicks can work very well.

 

[keep_hope_alive Premium Member]

Note that the "gap" experienced isn't due to tweeter/woofer separation but instead relate to phase.

when you run a passive crossover the typical 12/db oct slope causes a 180 deg phase shift. this essentially means polarity has been flipped.

then you run a high pass crossover on the set, usually 12dB/oct and cause another phase shift. both the tweeter and woofer should response equally but i've noticed that is not always the case. sometimes flipping the polarity on the woofer corrects this issue.

when you notice a "dip" in response it can be one of two things.

1. phase between speakers is reversed.

2. the speakers are so off-axis that their response rolls off before the next speaker takes over. this is common with door speaker locations which can roll off as low as 3kHz. this phenomenon is also called "beaming".

 

[trumpet 5,000+ posts]

Coaxial speakers, good or bad? depends. is the tweeter placement good? no. almost though. a coincident tweeter (mounted in pole piece) is the ideal location. Orion had these in their XTR line back in the 90's (i had a pair). Eclipse did this in their Point Source series (I've had those also). Other companies have as well (MB Quart). Mounting the tweeter in front of the woofer is not done anywhere else. Even in home audio the tweeter location is recessed to align with the acoustical center of the woofers.

What about how the movement of the woofer cone affects the treble on a point source coaxial? The woofer acts like a wave guide, except the wave guide is constantly moving, so the treble response is altered slightly. The one time I ran this type of coaxial I didn't have any idea of how that design can be superior to a pole mounted tweeter, plus they were in factory door locations low and forward. I do remember it sounded quite good for what they were(Massive Audio SK6 off an Alpine V-Power head unit).

 

[CJL 10+ year member]

Those look like awesome choices to me!The only problem I see is that the peerless 6.5s you picked at 8 ohms. Do they make a 4 ohm version?

Most 2 or 4 or 6 channel amps don't put out much power at 8 ohms.

What do you think of THeSE with those tweets?