oklahoma's new law HB 1804

[sundownz Pro Seller]

Most of this "reform" is a step in the WRONG direction without making it more accessible for people to actually come here legally.

I know quite a few illegal immigrants -- all of the ones I know are hard working and aren't here to cause trouble. They would gladly go through the citizenship process if it wasn't darn near impossible to do -- especially if you don't have the money to pay a lawyer to help you out.

As I said before... the system wants to keep them illegal so big business can continue to pay them crap wages. If they were legal tax paying citizens they would have the right to demand better conditions and wages... business that relies on cheap labor doesn't want that. As long as these guys effectively run the country immigrants won't have an easily accessible way to become citizens and there won't be any effective legislation to enforce the laws either.

I also take most statistics of what immigrants cost us with a grain of salt... without the ability to track what they do with their income how exactly does the government know what they cost the economy as a whole?

Anyhow... it's a complicated issue and I'm sure I am missing something in my thoughts on it, as are most of us.

 

[duece212 5,000+ posts]

Most of this "reform" is a step in the WRONG direction without making it more accessible for people to actually come here legally.
I know quite a few illegal immigrants -- all of the ones I know are hard working and aren't here to cause trouble. They would gladly go through the citizenship process if it wasn't darn near impossible to do -- especially if you don't have the money to pay a lawyer to help you out.

As I said before... the system wants to keep them illegal so big business can continue to pay them crap wages. If they were legal tax paying citizens they would have the right to demand better conditions and wages... business that relies on cheap labor doesn't want that. As long as these guys effectively run the country immigrants won't have an easily accessible way to become citizens and there won't be any effective legislation to enforce the laws either.

I also take most statistics of what immigrants cost us with a grain of salt... without the ability to track what they do with their income how exactly does the government know what they cost the economy as a whole?

Anyhow... it's a complicated issue and I'm sure I am missing something in my thoughts on it, as are most of us.

Unfortunately that is the only known part of the illegal immigration debate.

I agree there are some illegal aliens that are just here to work and support their families. Unfortunately to do that they have to illegally jump our border and then commit document fraud if they plan to work a job that doesn't pay under the table (which is tax evasion). Document fraud, or Identity Theft, isn't a victimless crime. Imagine getting laid off from a job and going to get unemployment, but get denied because an illegal is using your social security number and shows active wages. What do you tell your family when you can't feed them because somebody stole your identity and now you can't get unemployment, welfare, or food assistance when you really need it. Do you tell them eh...its just document fraud that will starve our family...its a victimless crime...

Everybody that is pro-illegal complains when nobody shows figures. Then when you show figures they reply that they can't be accurate since you can't track everything about people living "in the shadows." Can't have the cake and eat it too, only politicians can do that //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif Numbers from the CIS can be taken with a grain of salt, but they are probably the best estimate of how bad things are, and could be with an amnesty.

As I've said before, employers are predators on this crap situation illegals have put themselves in. Illegals need to be held accountable, but some employers need to start doin some pen time for hiring illegals AND exploiting them.

I don't think any sort of amnesty is just, what happens when all our illegals are made legal, ask for better working conditions and wages, and can actually raise their voices? You guessed it, the employer will then bus in more illegals and we will back in this same mess another 20 years down the road...only horribly over-populated and poor ourselves //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crap.gif.7f4dd41e3e9b23fbd170a1ee6f65cecc.gif

Amnesty is a slap in the face to those immigrants that came here legally, and a slap to the face of the tax paying Legal U.S. Citizens of this country.

 

[tRidiot 10+ year member]

They would gladly go through the citizenship process if it wasn't darn near impossible to do -- especially if you don't have the money to pay a lawyer to help you out.

Unfortunately, this isn't quite true. Of course, the lawyers WANT you to believe this, but it's really NOT all that difficult from a technical standpoint. You just have to be dedicated and sit down and read the materials.

A lawyer is not required, and anyone with a reasonable amount of intelligence and dedication to do the research can do this solo. Personally, I won't accept laziness as an excuse.

To me it's not even about the money, it's about the principle of the thing. If you want it that bad, then do something about it, don't just sit there and whine until someone gives you what you want.

No offense to you sundownz, I just disagree with your assessment.

 

[xtremebassjunky 10+ year member]

pretty lame law........sounds like it was written by an ignorant redneck

lol yeah and i haven't ever met NASCAR lovin rednecks from TN?..... //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif

 

[xtremebassjunky 10+ year member]

well... from a side perspective.... my dad's family is from honduras... a more well to do family though... my father came here legally 20+ years ago...

I don't know if you guys have ever seen what the lives of these people are like in latin america... it's not pretty... I am saying that I advocate illegal immigration at all. I don't like it either.

I have worked with some of the people who are illegal before as summer jobs while I am on summer break from college... the ones i worked with are good people and just trying to make a living anyway they can so they can provide for their family.

Again not saying that I advocate illegal immigration... I am firmly against it actually...

But after seeing what the living conditions are like in central america, I can understand their urge to leave their homecountry...

 

[xtremebassjunky 10+ year member]

oh yeah... btw... okie's... I am setting up a meet here in Tulsa.

 

[tRidiot 10+ year member]

But after seeing what the living conditions are like in central america, I can understand their urge to leave their homecountry...

Of course... I've seen that as well, some deplorable conditions. I know many,many hundreds (perhaps thousands) of people who would kill to come to the US... but the fact is, it's limited for a reason. We can't just throw the borders open to everyone or we'd literally be swamped and things would get out of hand in a heartbeat.

This is why we limit it. The system needs to be overhauled, but giving amnesty out every couple of decades and turning a blind eye the rest of the time is not working.

 

[duece212 5,000+ posts]

I totally understand the want to leave corrupt/poor countries for a better life. The U.S. welcomes those people with open arms, if you do it the legal way. With identity theft, each person coming here illegally to "make a better life" can ruin a life for some law abiding citizen here.

Nobody is saying they are bad people, we are just saying they are negatively impacting others lives for the sake of their own, and doing it illegally. Some people might consider that selfish :/

 

[duece212 5,000+ posts]

Of course... I've seen that as well, some deplorable conditions. I know many,many hundreds (perhaps thousands) of people who would kill to come to the US... but the fact is, it's limited for a reason. We can't just throw the borders open to everyone or we'd literally be swamped and things would get out of hand in a heartbeat.
This is why we limit it. The system needs to be overhauled, but giving amnesty out every couple of decades and turning a blind eye the rest of the time is not working.

Truth ^^^^^^

Compassion is the only logical argument for amnesty of illegal immigrants, and it can be a good one. But that same compassion and logic also tells us our nation can't be giving to everyone that needs it, especially those that take it illegally. The money and support only goes so far. Do we drop alot of international assistance because we can't afford it since we want to amnestize 12 to 20 million law breakers?

 

[xtremebassjunky 10+ year member]

Oh i know it needs to be limited.

 

[sundownz Pro Seller]

Unfortunately, this isn't quite true. Of course, the lawyers WANT you to believe this, but it's really NOT all that difficult from a technical standpoint. You just have to be dedicated and sit down and read the materials.
A lawyer is not required, and anyone with a reasonable amount of intelligence and dedication to do the research can do this solo. Personally, I won't accept laziness as an excuse.

To me it's not even about the money, it's about the principle of the thing. If you want it that bad, then do something about it, don't just sit there and whine until someone gives you what you want.

No offense to you sundownz, I just disagree with your assessment.

http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f35e66f614176543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=4d361868f9bdd010VgnVCM1000000ecd190aRCRD&vgnextchannel=4f719c7755cb9010VgnVCM10000045f3d6a1RCRD

Looks to me like it could take YEARS to do it even if you aren't lazy and follow all the rules to the letter. I imagine it's much more complicated but I found that in just a few minutes.

The people making the rules need to face reality. People WILL come here, why not make it easier for them to be legal, pay taxes, and be accounted for legally?

Just as deuce said... with the current system they force immigrants to forge documents and that CAN hurt other people. There needs to be some system to get these people numbers so they can be identified. We can't just pretend they don't exist, they do, and they are here now. Perhaps even a "temporary worker VISA" as some of them would be happy to come and work for a while and then travel home... if it wasn't so difficult to get here and back. Why not give them a number to pay taxes while they are here and/or if they are applying for a more permanent status?

 

[tRidiot 10+ year member]

Jacob, as someone who's been through it, I can tell you it doesn't require a lawyer and it isn't as hard as the 'immigration attorneys' would have you believe.

It's not a short process, and it shouldn't be. It takes some years, yes. But it's far from impossible for the average person to figure out if it's important enough for them to spend time doing the research.

Cheers. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

 

[tRidiot 10+ year member]

Oh, and the only ones who have to forge any documents are the illegal ones.

 

[duece212 5,000+ posts]

http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f35e66f614176543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=4d361868f9bdd010VgnVCM1000000ecd190aRCRD&vgnextchannel=4f719c7755cb9010VgnVCM10000045f3d6a1RCRD
Looks to me like it could take YEARS to do it even if you aren't lazy and follow all the rules to the letter. I imagine it's much more complicated but I found that in just a few minutes.

The people making the rules need to face reality. People WILL come here, why not make it easier for them to be legal, pay taxes, and be accounted for legally?

Just as deuce said... with the current system they force immigrants to forge documents and that CAN hurt other people. There needs to be some system to get these people numbers so they can be identified. We can't just pretend they don't exist, they do, and they are here now. Perhaps even a "temporary worker VISA" as some of them would be happy to come and work for a while and then travel home... if it wasn't so difficult to get here and back. Why not give them a number to pay taxes while they are here and/or if they are applying for a more permanent status?

If you say people WILL come here..unfortunately with another amnesty if we do it and don't secure our borders employers will find new illegals to hire that will still work for horrible wages in horrible conditions. So it will be a never ending cycle. What do we do when a good portion of those amnestized become citizens and have to go on welfare when new illegals come in and take their jobs. What kind of burden will that put on us?

Illegals WILL keep coming as long as the laws are not enforced and employers draw them here. Notice in the states with strict laws the illegals there are moving to more legal friendly states. What do you think would happen if the feds enforced like they should and actually secured our borders? All the illegals would migrate home...or to Canada eh.

People talk about the costs of deportation, if the laws were enforced its obvious most illegals would self-deport. At that point then I say take another assessment of unemployment, wages, and rethink our immigration system.

 

[millerscents 10+ year member]

.
I also take most statistics of what immigrants cost us with a grain of salt... without the ability to track what they do with their income how exactly does the government know what they cost the economy as a whole?

QUOTE]

the ones that i worked around sent allmost all of there money back to mexico exept for what they needed to live on. they also had 5-10 people in a single apartment

 

[sundownz Pro Seller]

If you say people WILL come here..unfortunately with another amnesty if we do it and don't secure our borders employers will find new illegals to hire that will still work for horrible wages in horrible conditions. So it will be a never ending cycle. What do we do when a good portion of those amnestized become citizens and have to go on welfare when new illegals come in and take their jobs. What kind of burden will that put on us?
Illegals WILL keep coming as long as the laws are not enforced and employers draw them here. Notice in the states with strict laws the illegals there are moving to more legal friendly states. What do you think would happen if the feds enforced like they should and actually secured our borders? All the illegals would migrate home...or to Canada eh.

People talk about the costs of deportation, if the laws were enforced its obvious most illegals would self-deport. At that point then I say take another assessment of unemployment, wages, and rethink our immigration system.

And again, we are at a point where no matter what we decided -- your way, my way, or another way -- something is going to give.

What happens when cheap labor is gone? Quite a few US factories will close, no longer able to compete with imports. The legal workers at those places lose their jobs too. The businesses that do stick around will have to raise prices, decreasing what the average Joe can buy with his wages -- then wages must increase, costs go up, etc. That equals inflation.

I don't really see there being an "ideal" solution -- more like juggling a mess, which is what our government does with everything it touches anyway. I think a temporary worker ID would be a help, it would at least get some tax dollars from workers who would not otherwise be paying them. Perhaps even add extra tax on there for being a temp and not a permanent resident to pay for any overhead in managing it. Any way you look at it... just having them all leave isn't going to help our country per-se, neither is having them stay illegal as it is.

I'm not saying I have the solution -- but "sending them all home" isn't as much of a solution as people seem to think it is.

 

[sundownz Pro Seller]

Jacob, as someone who's been through it, I can tell you it doesn't require a lawyer and it isn't as hard as the 'immigration attorneys' would have you believe.
It's not a short process, and it shouldn't be. It takes some years, yes. But it's far from impossible for the average person to figure out if it's important enough for them to spend time doing the research.

Cheers. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

I'm sure you know more about it than I do, being that you have done it. And sure, it can be done... seems to me, though, that it is a bit more difficult and time consuming than it needs to be -- especially for people that simply want to come here, work for a few years, then go back home.

I'm not for just making all illegals citizens automatically... but I do think that some kind of ID system needs to be around to account for them and give them some kind of temp status, at least so we know who they are and so they can pay taxes. There are some visa programs that are kind of like this already, but again, seems that they are too complicated and/or time consuming for people that want to get here fast to make money and help their families.

Maybe I'm off on that... but I'd think a great deal more immigrants would be doing it legally if it wasn't more complicated than it needed to be. I'm sure they don't enjoy watching their back and fearing deportation.

 

[duece212 5,000+ posts]

And again, we are at a point where no matter what we decided -- your way, my way, or another way -- something is going to give.
What happens when cheap labor is gone? Quite a few US factories will close, no longer able to compete with imports. The legal workers at those places lose their jobs too. The businesses that do stick around will have to raise prices, decreasing what the average Joe can buy with his wages -- then wages must increase, costs go up, etc. That equals inflation.

I don't really see there being an "ideal" solution -- more like juggling a mess, which is what our government does with everything it touches anyway. I think a temporary worker ID would be a help, it would at least get some tax dollars from workers who would not otherwise be paying them. Perhaps even add extra tax on there for being a temp and not a permanent resident to pay for any overhead in managing it. Any way you look at it... just having them all leave isn't going to help our country per-se, neither is having them stay illegal as it is.

I'm not saying I have the solution -- but "sending them all home" isn't as much of a solution as people seem to think it is.

I don't see the threat of inflation important enough to keep people at $5.85/hr for the rest of their lives. Its very discouraging to see any job that can't be outsourced be filled with insourced illegal labor (not all jobs, but its a trend). We have a disgusting trade deficit that needs to be delt with. I love my good priced amps //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif and my cheap walmart made in china toys, but at some point something is going to have to change or the average american won't stand any chance to make it to middle class. Maybe its not entirely that bleak, but i'm a pessimist.

We have a few big problems. both sides of the debate are at extreme opposites. There are people like me that want to see deportation, self deportation, and employer enforcement. Then there are others that want amnesty and temporary guest worker visas (which is a sham if you've read any of the recent defeated "comprehensive immigration reform" bills almost all temp visas could convert to full citizenship status.) Its hard to come to a compromise with people so far apart on ideas.

The absolute biggest problem we have though is our government. With an election year coming up we will continue to here the talk, but guaranteed when in office we won't see the walk //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crap.gif.7f4dd41e3e9b23fbd170a1ee6f65cecc.gif

I honestly think, secure our borders and "send them home" or let them self-repatriate once we start enforcing our laws is a solution...ideal no...just and feasible...yes. Send home the lawbreakers, properly assess the need for employees and methodically fix the numbers/process of our Legal immigration system once we know what we actually need for labor without suppressing wages with an oversupply of labor and a shortage of demand. Amnestizing 12 to 20 million illegals is just not the ideal, nor feasible answer no matter how you try to reason it.

Its good to debate here though. Always good to see others take on the argument and experiences.

 

[tRidiot 10+ year member]

I'm sure you know more about it than I do, being that you have done it. And sure, it can be done... seems to me, though, that it is a bit more difficult and time consuming than it needs to be -- especially for people that simply want to come here, work for a few years, then go back home.
I'm not for just making all illegals citizens automatically... but I do think that some kind of ID system needs to be around to account for them and give them some kind of temp status, at least so we know who they are and so they can pay taxes. There are some visa programs that are kind of like this already, but again, seems that they are too complicated and/or time consuming for people that want to get here fast to make money and help their families.

Maybe I'm off on that... but I'd think a great deal more immigrants would be doing it legally if it wasn't more complicated than it needed to be. I'm sure they don't enjoy watching their back and fearing deportation.

You're absolutely right. It is more complicated and a longer process than it should be. I am for opening it up slightly, but having lived outside the US for 3 years, I can tell you for a fact that if we open it up and make it easier, we're gonna get swamped in a heartbeat. There's no doubt about it. And the problem is, it's very very difficult to perform adequate background checks on people from other countries. They just don't have the same kind of system we're blessed with here, with VICAP and all the computerized criminal databases, etc.

As for the current illegals, I just don't see that rewarding them for breaking our laws is the right way to go. Making them go back home and re-apply for a temporary work visa is a good idea, but I just think that when that Visa is up, they're going to skip anyways and just be illegal again. I honestly don't believe many of these people ever want to go back 'home' for good.